Oil Cooler Thermostats, Troutman or Mocal? Options

[brant]

Fair questions.
its definitely a track only car.
I would run a thermostat on a dual purpose or street car.

regarding my manual block off plates.
I don't change them through out the day.
I put one in depending upon the time of year and then leave it alone.
I guess I could change them if I needed too, but just never need to.

definitely though I warm my car up before going on track.
have always done this even way back when I used to run a thermostat.
my oil pressures start around 100 cold and by the time I'm into the operating temp its usually down to 60. by the end of a race i'm lower yet. Racing is going fine. I wish I was faster, but I'm pleaed with my ability to move through traffic this year. was able to get to about a half dozen wheel to wheel weekends this year including 1 in nebraska and another in oklahoma. Its been fun to learn new tracks.

[Heeltoe914]

Glad to hear you are doing wheel to wheel. If you are having fun what more can anyone ask for.
Nice fab work on your coolers. I am now learning to tig weld, got a great Miller unit and lots of scrap to work with, do you have any tig welding tips to pass on?

am I hijacking this topic? Sorry back to Thermostats. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[brant]

Glad to hear you are doing wheel to wheel. If you are having fun what more can anyone ask for.
Nice fab work on your coolers. I am now learning to tig weld, got a great Miller unit and lots of scrap to work with, do you have any tig welding tips to pass on?

am I hijacking this topic? Sorry back to Thermostats. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Thanks for the comments.
I've been taking night school for TIG welding
I found a journey man adult education program that has really helped.
regarding tips... ha... you should ask someone more skilled than I.

how about I say something simple;
"the nicest welds always involve the least amount of heat to get the job done"

no real tips to share I'm afraid
but I really do appreciate working with an instructor or someone more qualified that can examine my practices and give me direction and instruction after I take a stab at it.

I taught myself to weld stick and mig, and have re-learned so much from an instructor that I highly wish I hadn't tried to teach myself now...

brant

[Brando]

I don't run a thermostat for my remote cooler.

But mine sits under the rear trunk, near the heat exchangers -- I think letting it sit for 10 minutes before driving warms it up just fine.

[Jkids914]

Can someone enlighten me on where to source a Troutman unit? Ain't having any luck on my own...Thanks!

Wade

[race914]

Here ya go!

Can someone enlighten me on where to source a Troutman unit? Ain't having any luck on my own...Thanks!

Wade

[race914]

Hey everyone!

Thanks again for your responses so far.

I didn't provide this info earlier because I didn't want to bias the inputs. But here is what I currently have:

AN-10 Troutman Thermostat in the engine compartment



AN-10 lines to front trunk mounted Fluidyne DB-30417 (1.15 quart)



Air runs through front bumper cutout through cooler through exit in hood



I even added a 'splitter box' to force air through the cooler

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5027-1161038482.jpg)


Problem: Last event my oil temp went over 250 after about 10 minutes of full out laps. SCCA Vintage sessions go up to 25 minutes, hence the rub...


I was originally wanting to increase flow and simplify my plumbing (to clean up the engine compartment) by switching to a AN-12 mocal thermostat and mounting it behind the passenger side rocker like others in the club have done.

From all of the good input above, here is what I'm thinking:

* Flow: I didn't realize before the flow restriction inherent in the thermostats. I'm thinking that the restricted flow plus the AN-10 lines may be part of my problem.

* Cooler Capacity: Also wondering if my cooler is too small at only 1.15 quarts (hotrod 4's run hot!) I'm thinking about running two like Brant's setup.


OK, now you know what I have, and why I asked the question!

Here's the loaded question! I'm sure I'll get lots of feedback (you guys are good at this!)

What do you think I should change to get my temps down?
(and converting to a six is not an acceptable answer!)

[GS Guy]

Canton has a pretty trick (looking anyway) oil thermostat. Seems to be priced in the Troutman range. No other info on this piece, but judging on the quality of other CM products I wouldn't have any qualms about it being suitable for the job. Might be more of a space issue though.

http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/oil_co...hermostats.html

I have a Mocal thermostatic oil cooler adapter (goes in between filter and mount), and I was pretty disappointed with the overall quality of this unit. It's a casting, interior (and exterior for that matter) fit and finish was marginal (IMHO) at best. Lots of flashing and restrictive passages inside. I ended up porting it for better flow, and noted the sloppy fit of the thermostatic mechanism inside (took it out for the porting work). It didn't move smoothly even when lubricated. Makes me wonder how it would perform on the engine.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Ended up shelving it when I found it wouldn't fit with my engine mounts (on a Suby engine). Based on what I saw in this one case, I'd be hesitant to purchase other Mocal products. Other opinions seem to be positive on the stand alone thermostst, so..... YMMV

I replaced it with the Canton (non-thermostat) cooler adapter - one nice piece, machined from solid and anodized. Of course, now I've got to install a remote thermostat....
Jeff

[J P Stein]

I have a similar set-up but with 12 AN lines and my engine never runs over 100C. Lemme ask a stoopid question. Is your cooler up front getting hot?

My biggest screwup....ecxept maybe for starting with 914s:
When I initially installed my Troutman thermo, I mis-plumbed it. The only thing between me and a ruint motor was the Troutman thremo's pressure bypass.......blew up my cooler, tho.....Fluidyne coolers are tough, but not that tough.

[groot]

Are you running a dry sump?

Last year I ran a wet sump with an accumulator and regularly saw 250 degrees. I switched to dry sump this year and moved the oil cooler to a better location and now I have trouble getting the oil up to temp. So, I actually reduced the air going to the cooler and now I can get the temps into a reasonable range (210). I have a oil T-stat that I plan on installing....maybe.

Couple things here though that confound my results.... I definitely improved the air flow to my front mounted cooler and converted to a dry sump at the same time. The dry sump has enormous capacity (16 quarts) compared to the wet sump (~6 quarts).

As Jake says....... oil temp is increased by RPM, head temps are increased by load.

[race914]

I have a similar set-up but with 12 AN lines and my engine never runs over 100C. Lemme ask a stoopid question. Is your cooler up front getting hot?

My biggest screwup....ecxept maybe for starting with 914s:
When I initially installed my Troutman thermo, I mis-plumbed it. The only thing between me and a ruint motor was the Troutman thremo's pressure bypass.......blew up my cooler, tho.....Fluidyne coolers are tough, but not that tough.

Hi JP,

Excellent question!

I checked that during my 'diagnosis' steps. When the oil heats up, the thermostat opens and the cooler gets hot so that all appears to be working correctly. Even went back to Troutman and got the schematic to ensure it was plumbed correctly.

Greg

[race914]

Are you running a dry sump?

Last year I ran a wet sump with an accumulator and regularly saw 250 degrees. I switched to dry sump this year and moved the oil cooler to a better location and now I have trouble getting the oil up to temp. So, I actually reduced the air going to the cooler and now I can get the temps into a reasonable range (210). I have a oil T-stat that I plan on installing....maybe.

Couple things here though that confound my results.... I definitely improved the air flow to my front mounted cooler and converted to a dry sump at the same time. The dry sump has enormous capacity (16 quarts) compared to the wet sump (~6 quarts).

As Jake says....... oil temp is increased by RPM, head temps are increased by load.

Hi Kevin,

I'm still running a wet sump. I was concerned that the close proximity of a couple of the header tubes to the sump was 'heating' the oil so I wrapped those sections. It now takes longer for the temp to start heading to 250 (I can get a couple extra laps at normal temp) so it appears that did help somewhat.

I think you have the better improvement of going to a dry sump. Any recommendations on a setup?

Greg

[brant]

Greg,

it would be fairly inexpensive to plumb out your thermostat and try it to see if the temps come down.

you can even go to hydraulic hose places and have them make a steel/heavy line very affordably.

I took out my accusump on my old race car when I converted it back to a street car. My local NAPA makes up hydraulic lines. I didn't want to spend another 50 bucks to run a short stainless line where my accusump used to be. They made up a steel and rubber hydraulic line for me with the correct pitch A/N fittings for about 10-12 bucks.

it would be fairly easy to see what effect that had and not cost a bundle.

brant

[groot]

Greg,

There's several (infinite, probably) ways to do a dry sump. I went one way and it's working on my car....there are probably better ways to do it, but the basics are:

-CB type 1 dry sump pump (~$100, but not the best pump in the world)... you can spend a load of cash on this part. I had to make some mods to it to make sure it cleared the cam bolts and matched the ports on the type 4 engine, and grind bit off of the stock fan housing to clear the studs that hold the pump on the engine

-Sump side plumbed to a remote filter-cooler-top of tank

-Bottom of tank plumbed to the pressure side of the pump

-3 gallon dry sump tank (Used Peterson tank, ~$200)

-Lots of fittings and stainless -10 lines (you'll spend several hundred bucks getting all of this)

[Aaron Cox]

why -10? why not do -12 and then you can use the same setup on a six swap in the future?

i ran -10 oil lines for my hot 4, and wish i woulda done -12 for a future six swap

[groot]

Have you looked at the oil passages in the engine case? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ... maybe -6.

[race914]

Greg,

it would be fairly inexpensive to plumb out your thermostat and try it to see if the temps come down.

you can even go to hydraulic hose places and have them make a steel/heavy line very affordably.

I took out my accusump on my old race car when I converted it back to a street car. My local NAPA makes up hydraulic lines. I didn't want to spend another 50 bucks to run a short stainless line where my accusump used to be. They made up a steel and rubber hydraulic line for me with the correct pitch A/N fittings for about 10-12 bucks.

it would be fairly easy to see what effect that had and not cost a bundle.

brant

Hi Brant,

That sounds like a good experiment. Thanks for the tip on the hydraulic hoses!

Greg

[race914]

why -10? why not do -12 and then you can use the same setup on a six swap in the future?

i ran -10 oil lines for my hot 4, and wish i woulda done -12 for a future six swap

Hi Aaron,

When I picked up the used motor is was already setup for an external oil cooler with AN-10 fittings on the block so I just went with that at the time. You are exactly correct, I need to go to AN-12 when I make any upgrades.

Thanks for the reply!

Greg

[race914]

Have you looked at the oil passages in the engine case? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ... maybe -6.

Hi Kevin,

That's a real good point. I don't know what's going on in the case. The last rebuild on the motor was 2001 so it's time to go back through it and check that out while I'm at it.

Your previous reply has me investigating a dry sump system too! I would like to have the problem of not getting up to temp versus watching the temp go past 250 and having to come in...

Greg

[E-Man]

Can anyone comment on their experience with the Mocal sandwich plate with the built-in thermostat? -Mike