So how much does it really cost to build an engine, Not talking about an already made kit.... Options

[Carlitos Way]

I'm thinking about taking a 2.0 block to about a 2270.

If I'm not mistaken, this can be done with relatively minor changes. Perhaps polish the crank, and do some machine work on the case to accommodate the 103 Ps and Cs. Then, add a cam, and some head work.

Any ideas? I'm trying to budget for a rebuild... and I'm trying to make sure I budget properly.

[BMXerror]

i also agree with mark, however experimenting is a great deal of fun , it is what it is , and its usually costly. what you want should be more defined. but i think he was asking for a low cost built not to experement . some just do not have the funds to do a build each year.

I know lack of funds all too well. That's why I haven't built ANY motor for my teener. Sorry, Carlos. I should've asked what you wanted before I went on a rant. I've just been feeling like more and more of an outsider lately. It sometimes results in me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif)
Mark D.

[Crazyhippy]

2366? You heard i'm going to a 2.5liter and are trying to keep up? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Be sure to talk to Aaron, Clayton and Type4unleashed (i'm horrible w/ names, sorry) in person, they are all deep into the type 4 world, local (ish), and CSOB's. Great combo for what you are looking for.

BJH (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

[Twystd1]

I don't know sheeeeit...

Talk to Type4unleashedaaroncoxraby.

But if you need piston squirters or a set of Custom pistons.. I might know some peeps......

Claytonovich. East Of Krackatoa

[craig downs]

You only want to go up to 96 with cast iron cylinders. If you go any bigger with cast iron you could run into problems with the cylinder bore staying round

[Jake Raby]

Building an engine can be a very fulfilling experience, especially if you do the design as well as the assembly, but by the same token it can also be an expensive and sometimes very difficulot experience.

The Type 4 engine is a beast of it's own, unlike most any other engine in the way it really wants to be configured and tuned, sure some will say that I am wrong and all engines are the same, but I'll compare accomplishments with anyone.

I created my kits for the smart guys, the ones that realize that it takes hundreds of engine builds and moreover dozens of tries with the same engine and different cams, heads, ignition and induction systems to ever attain a thorough understanding of what makes for the "Bes" all around engine.

Making HP is easy, thats simple- but what is not simple is making that extra power at a usable RPM, making it without loss of reliability, making it at a much higher level of efficiency compared to stock and the biggest one is making a larger engine that has double the net power of a stock engine WHILE MAKING IT WITH COOLER TEMPS!

The main thing that hurts the Type 4 engine is poor decisions made by those that do not do their research prior to engaging in a wallet opening experience. Looking at catalogs and buying parts too big is the biggest sinle issue with these engines and thats because people just can't grasp that displacement DOES NOT dictate power output alone! What added displacement can do is make it very hard to attain efficiency, thats because as an engine grows in displacement it demands a better engine design that is less forgiving, to make it's power, power band and to do so efficiently.

Why is the 2270 such a common performance engine today?? well, a few years ago you never heard of a 2270 being built as most everyone was running either a 2056 or they would jump straight to a 103 bore size. In 1996 I got tired of the issues that the cast Iron 103 and larger cylinders caused and I decided to do my best to make my favorite engine combination more effective. The goal was to be able to use only a 96mm bore to parallel the power we were seeing with 103 bores and larger, but to do away with all the huge bore hassles like over expansion, head leakage at less than 5 K miles, uncontrollable oil temps and overall decreased longevity. From 1996 until 1999 when I started assisting LN Engineering with the development of Nickies TM I only built TWO engines with cast iron 103 cylinders- since 1999 I have not built a single engine with a bore larger than 96mm that did not use Nickies TM!

Back then we were lucky if a 2270 made 145 HP, but after over 10 years of development we can now make 190 HP from that same 2270 engine with only cam and headwork alterations- the key to unlocking the door is compatibility. The 190 HP that we see from these 2270 combos today is also a very usable power band with peak torque at only 4K RPM and peak HP at only 6,500 RPM- 5 years ago it took us 7K RPM to make only 160 HP and it took over 9.5:1 CR to do it as well, today 190HP can be made on 89 octane at less than 8.8:1 CR.

Doing things like changing 15 cams in a single engine in 30 days and also swapping every set of carbs and exhaust with each of those cam swaps to watch the net power and the trends is just one of the ways we have taken the 2270 to a different level and made it the most popular TIV combo of today.

The problem we have seen guys running into recently is the misconception that all 2270cc combos are created equally. The general misconception is that the displacement of the engine is just right and allows pretty much any cam, CR and heads to be used to net the same results that we have, that everyone brags about- thats just not true.

Generally 2-3 times per month I'll get a phone call from a generally dishearted soul that talks like he just lost his best friend, no enthusiasm in his voice and it's clearly evident that he is to the point of either giving up or selling the car. His story is in most cases just like the dozens before him as he didn't listen to the warnings, bought parts from 10 different suppliers, tried to get by without paying the required dues needed to enter the world of true performance and now his spirit is broken. Most of the time these conversations start out with the same approach with the dishearted soul trying to justify the reason that he didn't buy our kit or complete engine to begin with or at least buy the compatible parts from us as individual items. After I let him know that he is not alone and that I promise not to judge him for taking this approach to his build and that I agree to help him as long as he WILL LISTEN and not question my recommendations- all is well.

There are a few facts:
-IF you build a 2270 engine that creates anywhere near the power of my kit offerings you WILL spend within 10% of what my kit costs on parts alone.

- These parts will have to come from a multitude of sources taking time and headaches to source.

- These parts more than likely will not be compatible and the chances of a misconfigured combo or parts that physically collide into one another during assembly is very high.

- You'll be on your own to have the parts machined, clearanced and balanced and thats more cost, more hassle and more chance that some screwed up, non Type 4 specific machine shop will lose or destroy your parts.

- You'll be on your own during assembly, you'll have the forums as an aid, but the one forum where immediate assistance from the creator of your kit is available has a locked door. Yes, you can do some searches and come up with an answer, but does that answer pertain particulary to YOUR components and build??? Questions and guesswork....They kill the best engines.

-Tuning...... You can throw away the Bentley, Haynes and all those other workshop manuals because now you have entered an entirely different world where stock settings are no good at all..... Honestly since the compatibility of the cam, heads and etc is unknown it'll be hard to get any recommendations from anyone at all about how to tune the engine that you have created. What that means is trips up and down the road changing timing or jetting or a fuel MAP to try and find the sweet spot. Generally after two weeks of that guys get tired of it and they find a chassis dyno, the problem with that is the fact that most dyno shops have no clue about an aircooled engine and they generally further screw up the engine!

The most hardcore of these builders will persevere and end up with a positive experience from the engine after all is said and done, but unfortunately the majority of them end up as those dishearted souls on the other end of my phone line that sound like they are confessing sins to the Priest in a confession box when they ring me up. When they call I do my best to help, but I don't do it for free.

See, I learned EVERYTHING from experience, breaking parts and exploding engines. I know what it's like to create a worthless engine with a screwed up, unusable power band, that runs hot as hell and drinks gas like a V8. I also know what it's like to persevere and manipulate that engine into something that does work and I appreciate and understand what it takes to overcome the mechanical obstacles to recreate a previously worthless engine into one that runs like a champ.

I was lucky- I did most of my learning when parts were cheaper and cores were more easily found. Today I still screw up from time to time, but thats to be expected. Today we call it development, yesterday we called it trial and error.

I have great respect for ANYONE that has the intention of creating their own engine combo and building that engine for that purpose. I know exactly what drives those people and why they want to say that they did it without a kit and without assistance- I started that when I was age 8 and the first engine I built ran 30 seconds before it failed with a loud screech that I still remember to this day. I can only warn these guys like me that the probabiliuties of getting it wrong on the first try is much greater than getting it right and that you MUST accept that BEFORE you start! Most any engine will run, but the difference is how well they run, how usable the power is and how efficiently they'll make their power and at what temperature- getting it to run is just the first step.

My kit program was set up to benefit the smart do it yourselfer. Being able to offer fully machined, ready to assemble kits that are based on my most popular, easiest to build and tune combos has been the goal since the begining of the kit program in 2000. To date the ONLY kit assembler that has had the issues generally associated with a "from scratch" build has been Dave Hunt. Dave has had a rash of bad luck, but he has been given support at every stage of his disaster and we still support him today, almost 4 years since he bought his kit.

All I can say is do the homework... Listen to my weekly radio shows, read the forums, join my forums and do searches. Read, don't just look at pictures of sexy parts! The biggest thing to remember is the fact that with the Type 4 BIGGER IS NOT BETTER!!!!!!Build a well designed, smartly executed medium displacement engine for the best all around results. The 2270 and 2316cc combinations have a lot to offer and when properly manipulated these combinations can offer up to 210HP on pump gas at less than 9:1 CR.

Anyone thinking that they can build an engine that rivals my kit for less hasn't done the math or paid close attention to what the kits contain and the true value of those parts.

Spend it now, or spend it later- rageardless, it'll be spent.

I dan sure didn't create the 2270- but I certainly made it MassIVe.

[Jake Raby]

Oh yeah. I forgot.

That's how we learn! And BTW, where do you think the fearless leader Jake Raby came from?

A little town in North Georgia that got put on the map because of a stupid looking doll called a "Cabbage Patch kid"..

He's just another guy that started in a garage playin' around because he felt like it.

Correction:
I worked in an abandoned Chicke House that was built in the 1930s. It had floor that consisted of dirt and sawdust mixed together to keep the dust down. While I built an engine 15 feet away was two of the biggest Hogs in the county- they made for some fine Pork Chops.

And he didn't go crying his way away from motorsport when he blew his first motor. He learned and moved on.

Thats right, but I had the oportunity to do that.. I didn't have a full time job- hell I was in elementary school! I also had a dad that didn't know anything about engines, but he bought me every old used VW engine we could find as well as complete junk cars to chop up, build and drive.


The difference today is the world is too fast paced... Guys don't have the time to make mistakes because life has them by the balls and dictates their every move. Guys do have time to build an engine once, but if it constantly haunts them they are forced to give up or just throw it away....

Remember: The hotrodder didn't used to need A/C, power windows or other creature comforts to be happy. Today's society has ruined US, not the hotrodding!

Thats OK, I'll keep driving cars older than 1976 until they outlaw them, maybe I'll be dead by then.

[914werke]

but unfortunately the majority of them end up as those dishearted souls on the other end of my phone line that sound like they are confessing sins to the Priest in a confession box when they ring me up.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[brer]

I have $2100 into mine, including powder coating and new exhaust.
Its taken a year to get parts done and sourced and finally in one spot to assemble. Lots of ebay deals and time wasted here and there.




Warning: Be careful taking it apart as there is no gaurantee when it will be back to gether again.

[skline]

I just want to say, after reading Jake's post, he is 100% right. I built my own 2270 a few years ago and there were many problems I ran into. The engine never really ran great, it did run and was strong, but I was haunted with a million litle things and pulled the engine out of the car about 8 times fixing one thing after another.

I know Jake is not really into anything that is water cooled, but I am now and always have been a Chevy man, which is why I keep doing the V8 conversions. I will leave the type 4's to people who love them and know them and stick to what I know and love. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sww914]

Complete blown up 2366 for carbs & other parts(light flywheel, deep sump, weber 44's, big cam, modified rockers, oil cooler relocation plate, clutch, headers with a stinger, plus every bit of his 4cyl parts from 5 yrs of racing- $750.00
2.0 case that came with the car- 0
Heads that came with the car- 0
reconditioned crank- $200.00
bearings and gaskets- $200.00
rings- $125.00
Head work, 38mm X 48mm valves, new guides & seats, port and polish, etc. plus whatever other machine work I needed on case, rods, crank-
Sponsorship deal, $1500.00 of work for $300.00
Valve springs- $80.00
Pushrods- $60.00
96mm pistons & cyls- $450.00
Clearance pistons for big valves- $60.00
elephant's foot valve screws- $75.00
009 dizzy- $20.00
magnecor plug wires- $45.00
cylinder base shims- $40.00
Plugs, cap & rotor- $21.00
Pertronix $60.00
A couple of things here that you don't really need for a rebuild but I did them at that time to suit a race motor rather that a stock FI 2.0.
So now its a 2056 with 10.5 comp, big cam, huge valves, super light flywheel.
Grand Total- $2486.00. More than I thought before I added it all up just now.

[ThinAir]

Two years ago at this time I was about to start assembling my 2.0L. I wasn't seeking anything like what you are describing - just a reliable "stock" engine that was just a little bit better. I wanted just a little more umph while still running stock FI. For me that meant Euro "flat top" pistons and a slightly different cam. After I was done I had spent about $3200. That included every nut and bolt that I replaced, the paint to repaint the sheet metal, everything.

In the past I had rebuilt stock Type 1 engines, with no modifications. Doing these few changes to a stock Type IV took me into territory that I had no idea I was going to encounter. I was all ready to install the heads when I discovered that I needed to calculate deck height and order the correct shims. I needed to calculate correct push rod length by learning about valve train geometery. I would not say that the experience was bad or that I wouldn't do it again. The experience of building your own engine is very satisfying, but I would do some things differently.

The comments about the engineering side of things are dead on. This is what kills you. As simple as my modifications were, I had trouble getting answers from the forums that were precise and definitive. Lots of good ideas and opinions, but few "do this" kinds of answers. That left me often wondering about the wisdom of the choices I made.

Were I to do it again, I'd take one of 2 routes: 1) Buy McMark's $5,000 engine (which is a Raby kit that he builds), 2) Buy a kit from Jake. If I was building anything as different from stock as you are proposing I'd definitely take one of these routes. Buying a kit allows you to enjoy the building process without wondering if the engineering is right.

[DNHunt]

To date the ONLY kit assembler that has had the issues generally associated with a "from scratch" build has been Dave Hunt. Dave has had a rash of bad luck, but he has been given support at every stage of his disaster and we still support him today, almost 4 years since he bought his kit.

I hope this won't seem like a hijack but, I guess I ought to say something here since I'm mentioned by name. I would suggest that everyone considering a rebuild consider more than just the money. It may be cheaper to parts on your own but, if you buy one of Jakes kits you will recieve unsurpassed costumer support. The same goes for Charles at LN Engineering if you buy Nickies. These guys never once have even mentioned cutting me loose and I know my engine has been a money pit for them. For there continued support and at this point sacrifice I am truely grateful.

As to luck, there has been a measure of that. I received 2 WebCams that were made from the infamous India blanks. In fact my engine helped tip Jake off that the blanks were bad. To all apearances they were fine but they went flat. Jake replaced them and convinced WebCam they had a problem. As an individual buyer, I doubt any of us could have convinced WebCam to change no matter how much we beat our drum.

Most of the problems have had explanations. Charles has sent my pistons and cylinders back to Millenium three times I believe I quess I've lost count. Once was because the torque plate I used broke a cooling fin and actually bent a cylinder. My fault for sure and he asked no questions. After another problem, Charles sent everything to Bob Cousimano at CMW enterprises for him to check all on his dime. When Bob couldn't find anything, Charles and Jake supplied brand new pistons and cylinders. The last teardown I had 3 broken pistons from detonation and that is certainly a tuning problem. Yet, Charles already has a set of JE pistons coated and waiting for my cylinders which will be replated yet again and sent to Jake for him to reassemble. And, it turns out that source of the problem with the cylinders was shims I ordered from Rimco way back 3+ years ago. The manufacture of those shims was totally out of their control. I dare say you can't find any manufacturer or distributor that will stand behind their products like that. I think I should offer my first born in gratitude. (I should warn them about college costs though).

Now Jake is going to assemble my engine at his shop and break it in on the dyno. He has suggested that I come back and tune back there and I hope to do that.

I can't speak to what it would cost to build an engine by buying parts on the open market. The dollar cost may and I repeat may be cheaper than one of Jake's kits. Doing so you would be on you own. Granted my engine may be the "Perfect Storm" of all that can go wrong in an engine build but can any of you say it couldn't happen to you? Even with Jake with his experience overseeing the selection of parts cams got through that were subpar. I can't imagine any of us finding that kind of a problem. And the shims were a couple thousands smaller in diameter that the cylinder registers: who would have found that? (Incidentally, that was enough of a difference to distort 94mm iron cylinders at 32 lb ft too). Now, imagine what happens after everything heats up and the compression on the cylinders increases. Who would think to measure the inner diameter of cylinder shims? I suspect Jake does on his turnkey engines: I measured thickness with a micrometer every time but never thought about inner diameter. I just trusted Rimco. (Insert Jake saying "NEVER trust anything" here). Those little $10 parts have ruined 5 top ends and it wasn't apparent until the cylinders were torgued down and measured with a bore gauge. The point is out here on my own I would never work through all of these problems some of which were my own making.

Dave

[sww914]

After reading the eloquent post above, I feel that I should mention a couple of things about my engine.
1- I scrounged parts for months.
2- I put it together with the very cheapest crap I could find, except for the high quality head/machine work, which was still cheap- Thanks Lesco!
3- It works well, so far.
4- I don't trust this engine at all.

[Jake Raby]

Dave,
Thanks for the kind words in your post. The fact is that you have received exactly what you have given to Charles and I. Not once have you ever yelled, screamed or cussed even though any of the 3 would have been justifiable in your situation! Since you handled the situation in a mature, professional and respectful way I had no issues standing behind what we sold you.

The only time I ever "Cut someone loose" is when they act like a jackass, start the screaming and cussing and etc. When that happens my job turns into work, I get pissed and a bumpy road gets more bumpy. I treat others as they treat me, thats the way my Dad taught me to be and conduct business. Luckily I can count on one hand how many times I have had bad experiences like this and thats not bad considering I built my first engine for a paying customer at age 13!

Now that Dave has seemed to find the source of his issue I have agreed to end his back luck and whoop that engine back into shape myself, and it won't cost him a dime. Charles and I have learned way more from this engine that we would have ever expected to from a "kit" and that has it's own value to me and my engine kit and development programs.

When bad things happen the only good things we get from it is an understanding of why they occured and an opportunity to manipulate all future engines to overcome the issues before they occur.