OT: Gas Prices, Screwed over and over and over Options

[cuca914]

It looks like there are at least 3 constants here that everybody can agree on:
1. Oil consumption is up.
2. Gas prices are up.
3. Oil company profits are up.

The whole tax issue wouldn't be such a PITA if our legislators here in Cali would at least invest it into our infrastructure. It'd be nice to have an efficient, mass-transit system in locations other than the Bay Area. LA Area traffic is a friggin' nightmare, due in large part to too many people commuting from too damn far away. It's happening verrrrrry sloooooowly, not quite as fast as the gas prices are rising. Until we get more trains & buses here, don't look for consumption to curb anytime soon.

IMO, this is a very frustrating topic to discuss when there really aren't any 'simple' solutions. All I know is, certain people are getting very rich at our expense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif)

[Allan]

I don't know if I'm the first to say this because I didn't read throught the whole thread.

A 1 day boycott will NOT affect the bottom line of the producers, refiners, or distributors.

It will end up just the same at the end of the quarter as if you didn't "boycott".

It would take at least 4 months of "ZERO" gas sales to affect anything. If it had an impact before that point it would be purely based by media attention by the producers, refiners, and distributors.

Guys, we don't have that kind of staying power to manipulate the price of gas.

[SteveL]

I'm as guilty as other Americans. The only difference is I feel we made our own bed and don't complain about it. If you want change, buy an economy car and a small home and encourage politicians to offer tax savings for those that do.

Why should Joe Taxpayer subsidize somebody buying an economy car or more efficient/smaller house??? If somebody wants to do that, their reward is in the fuel and energy savings that result from it.

[carreraguy]

Get used to it everyone.
I'm trying not to be political here but nothing is going to happen until the US weans itself from oil and the stranglehold the mideast has on everyone. Getting their hands off our throats is not going to happen until we get a cheaper source of energy (i.e. nuclear power plants all over the country) and getting from the current situation to then is going to be VERY rough on the US economy in general - thus the status quo. Bottom line, we dug the hole and now we have to live with it (and I admit, I'm one of the guys with the shovel).

[Brando]

Hmmm... Time to go propane?

Gasoline is a staple... I don't think our dependance on it will go away anytime soon. But trimming down... Very plausible.

If you want to effect gas prices

For your next car, buy a hybrid. Trade in your current daily beater and get one. Or an EV. Or one that runs on E85. Or a propane vehicle. Or CNG... There are options; Ford and GMC sell Flex-Fuel vehicles. We're not going to see the alternatives as standards until we as a consumer base (and market base) push for it. Supply and Demand? Ever hear those three words together? It rings true... We have to be the driving force.

Now, if you're just looking to cut the profits of a company or industry specifically, I think that's vindictive consumerism. Unless they're (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif)-ing us such as the oil industry.

[swood]

It's our governments regulations that have more of an impact on the cost of gasoline. The oil companies can't legally provide enough to supply our gluttonous (sp) demand. The oil companies can only drill oil in 15% of our continental shelf. There is a lot of domestic oil to be had but the government says no. They have to produce winter gas and summer gas and balance production, storage and demand. Restricting domestic sourcing of oil forces us to rely on foreign oil.

I see two separate issues...one being the application of morality to the use and dependence upon fossil fuels and two, the supply and demand (economics) of oil consumption. I don't have a moral problem with the use of oil. I have a problem with being made to feel guilty for depending on oil and using gas, people complaining about the relative high price of gasoline irrespective of inflation and the real cause of why prices are so high.

I rarely point people to France and say "see, they're doing it, why don't we?", but they're succesfully using nuclear power. Why don't we? Why don't we ease our own economic burden and pump a little more domestic oil? Why don't we open up a few more of the local refineries that are just sitting unused?

And what of electric and ethanol? Are they really cheaper to produce than gas? How much does it cost and what is the environmental impact to growing that much corn? What fuel is used power the farming equipment?

Just a few thoughts. Not looking to stir it up, just wondering what people intend to do besides just bitch about it.

[smontanaro]

For your next car, buy a hybrid. Trade in your current daily beater and get one.
Or an EV. Or one that runs on E85. Or a propane vehicle. Or CNG... There are options

Regarding E85, here in the midwest at least there are essentially no E85 stations.
(I think there are fewer than ten in Illinois, and we are essentially drowning in
corn.)

Interestingly enough, one of the best EV conversion platforms is the 914. And
you can buy a kit from Electro Automotive. It's apparently quite well-done:

http://www.electroauto.com/

If I had a /4 I'd be on the verge of buying a kit right now.

Shorter term, you can always try driving less. Take the train or bus to work or
ride your bike. (I realize that's not an option for everyone. But I'll bet it's an
option for plenty of people who won't admit that it is.) Even if you can't change
your commute options you can do all sorts of stuff to reduce consumption: form
a carpool for work or to get the kids to soccer practice, walk to the store. Get
a little Vespa-type scooter for errands around town. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Skip

[brp914]

Why should Joe Taxpayer subsidize somebody buying an economy car or more efficient/smaller house??? If somebody wants to do that, their reward is in the fuel and energy savings that result from it.

It's the other way around. those who conserve subsidize those consumption force us to have to involve ourselves in wars in the middle east.

until we get a cheaper source of energy (i.e. nuclear power plants all over the country)

I attended a lecture recently where it stated that if the US attempted to covert entirely to nuclear power, we would consume all known supplies of uranium in 20 years.

[smontanaro]

Right now China and other parts of Asia have rapidly developing economies and their usage of automobiles is increasing dramatically. Their extra demand for oil has been at least partially responsible for the recent increases (last 3-5 years) in cost.

I suspect that China will turn out to be the largest producer of components for alternative fuel vehicles in the not-too-distant future as well, especially higher capacity batteries.

Skip

[Allan]

You guys are so misguided...

[newto914s]

I did my part by buying a Kawi ninja 250. Keeps up with highway traffic great and gets 60 mpg regardless of how I drive it. By my calculations I'm saving $.08 per mile over the VW camper I used to use as my DD and probably around $.05 over and average 30mpg car. Before gas broke $3 a gallon out here I was filling up of under $10. I haven't done that since the 80's
I basically needed it here in Colorado cause everything is so spread out, and it kills me that most of the people out here drive big Trucks and SUVs. Who ever said it earlier that it's going to take the well the dry up before American will change is right.
I think $5 a gallon will be the breaking point.
I was living in Puerto Rico last year. Gas was around $2.40 a gallon and tons of people drove scooters, mopeds, and Motorcycles because gas was expensive. The average median income down there is around $23k a year. In the States is around $44k so $5 a gallon should start to wean us off our addiction.

[carreraguy]

You guys are so misguided...

So educate us Obi-Wan.

[siverson]

> Hard to say who is to blame in the high price of gas.
> 1st, producers make profits.
> 2nd, transporters make profits.
> 3rd, refiners make profits,
> 4th, transporters (again) make profits
> Finally, retailler makes profits.

Wrong... The only person to blame is yourself (consumers). If you think the gas is overpriced, then don't buy it. They wouldn't sell it at that price if people we're willing to pay for it.

I'm also in the unpopular camp that is all for higher gas prices. Less traffic, less pollution, eventually smaller more efficient cars on the road - sounds good to me. I just wish the additional tax that could be collected would be put to good use...

-Steve

[lotus_65]

Random thoughts on what I've read:
We used to hear a lot about an annual "bike or bus" to work day. It's no longer promoted here, maybe it is where you live. Any promotion to encourage conservation on a meaningful level needs national legislative sponsership.
I hear many complain about larger vehicles, but the new turbodiesels are really clean and efficient. Maybe look at incentivizing that combination.
National mass transit will never happen in our childrens lifetimes or longer, if ever. Due to costs and political wrangling you can just forget about it. One system that I personally like is the RUF system. Combining mass transit where the need is with personalized mobility where we want makes sense to me. But again, impossible without national political and economic leadership.
Fuel is a large component of oil usage, but let's not forget about things like plastics! Recycling is a free and easy way to conserve oil.

There is no charge today.

Paul

[mudfoot76]

As others have probably already stated, the only way to reduce the price is reduce consumption. Econ 101 "supply and demand". Yes, there is a 'shortage' of refining capacity. Build new refineries? Sure great, but where do you put it? Everyone bitches about the price, but they bitch even more if you decide to build an oil refinery in their backyard. Nobody wants to live near one of these (just like a nuclear power plant) facilities.

A one-day boycott is perhaps the dumbest suggestion possible. There is a 3-4 month lag between the time the crude is pumped out of the ground and when you put gas in your tank. Maybe if you boycott for 30 days, that might do something for short term but as soon as we burn through that short term surplus the prices will shoot back up. A 30 cent price correction because of a one day boycott is urban legend.

Drill more? Well sure, except not all crude oil is ideal for the production of gasoline. The Saudis are really lucky to sit on massive deposits of "sweet" crude which is best for gasoline. IIRC, the known deposits in US territory are more of the "sour" variety (which can make good diesel except we've legislated diesel cars nearly extinct).

I'm all in favor of nuclear power. It is also misguided to think there is only enough fissile U235/238 to power for a couple decades. Modern reactor designs are not only much safer, but you can configure them into breeders and generate enough fuel for long enough to work on even better solutions (fusion, solar, etc).

BTW - premium around me is $3.40/gal. Sunday was the first time it ever cost more than $40 for me to fill up the tank in my MINI. That sucked, but I don't really have a choice. There is NO public transport available to me. I used to have people I carpooled with, but they have switched jobs and this is no longer an option either. Riding a bicycle isn't an option (too dangerous). A 250cc motorcycle might be worth considering for when the weather is nice....

[N14]

I brought this up at the local pub last night and after reading all your thoughts and listening to others....as much as I hate these massive price increases and I do believe there is price gouging going on, there is noone making me buy the gas. It looks as though an additional train of thought is in order.

More walking and cycling for me on local errands (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I do however still say it is the general public that has the power not the oil companies etc. If enough people are fed up then with some work changes can be had. One day general no gas boycotts will do nothing but a month where only your competition is getting the sales will.

[johannes]

6,5 $/gallon here in France ... And that's not that expensive.

Recent report shows that gas in France is cheaper than in the seventies.

People had to work 8 minutes to pay a liter in 1970 ... now they only have to work 4 minutes ...
At the same time european cars milage has doubled. Now you can find a wide range of cars that have 50 to 60 MPG milage... Gas impact on family budget has decreased on past 35 years.

[tdgray]

Get used to it everyone.
I'm trying not to be political here but nothing is going to happen until the US weans itself from oil and the stranglehold the mideast has on everyone. Getting their hands off our throats is not going to happen until we get a cheaper source of energy

After reading through some of the comments I have only one thing to add.

You guys really need to READ up on the subject and quit listening to the media hype. This is a complex issue and the media really only wants two things... scare you about it and tell you who is to blame for it.

As for the mid-east.... do you even know where we get the bulk majority of our oil (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I'll give you a hint... they aren't in the mideast.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK before going off half cocked people.

[N14]

Get used to it everyone.
I'm trying not to be political here but nothing is going to happen until the US weans itself from oil and the stranglehold the mideast has on everyone. Getting their hands off our throats is not going to happen until we get a cheaper source of energy

After reading through some of the comments I have only one thing to add.

You guys really need to READ up on the subject and quit listening to the media hype. This is a complex issue and the media really only wants two things... scare you about it and tell you who is to blame for it.

As for the mid-east.... do you even know where we get the bulk majority of our oil (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I'll give you a hint... they aren't in the mideast.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK before going off half cocked people.

I'm guessing Canada and Mexico are the US top 2 imports of crude oil

[gopack]

the only way to TRULY boycot is to use less fuel! This is "ride you r bike to work week"! if 90% of americans car pooled with 3 or more people or used public transportation, or pedaled to work for only one day a week, we would use at least 10% less gasoline! think of it! lets all get off our (some) fat asses and do our part!