 Suspension Tuning Setup Advice Needed..., went from a swinger to a plow... |
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| J P Stein |
 Dec 9 2003, 01:57 AM
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#21
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Irrelevant old fart  Group: Members Posts: 8,797 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Vancouver, WA Member No.: 45 Region Association: None  |
Come to think of it.........
I encourage you all not to do what I suggest. Should we ever meet at an AX, an old fart needs all the help he can get (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) . |
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| DuckRyder |
Dec 9 2003, 06:31 AM
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#22
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Avatars Mode: OFF because of the recalcitrant few. Group: Benefactors Posts: 767 Joined: 8-January 03 From: Georgia Member No.: 110  |
The disclaimer is that this is non-914 specific experience. I like a car tail happy for autocross, it helps a lot in the very low speed boxes that they like to set up. A car I had set up to my liking for autocross would be unsafe on the street and downright treacherous on a road course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)
Well, there are definitely two schools of thought on suspension design. The generally European school is heavy springs, stiff shocks, and little or no anti-sway bar. I have seen cars prepared in Europe for SCCA improved touring type of racing which had no anti-sway bars at all. The obvious downside is loss of ride quality. Advocates of this design say that the anti-sway bars defeat the independent suspensions ability to work properly. The generally American school is slightly raised spring rates with good dampers for controlled but not overly stiff spring-shock combinations and BIG anti-sway bars. The obvious advantage is little loss of ride quality. Advocates of this design say that overly stiff springs impair the suspensions ability to react to small imperfections. I find that I generally prefer the bigger sway bar approach, I my opinion it works better on less than perfect surfaces. I also feel it is a generally bad idea to mix the two schools of thought on the same car. Nevertheless, perhaps I should rephrase my previous answer. I think it needs a rear bar OR stiffer rear springs. Again, there are some 914 specific replies so weight them accordingly. (We need a cone smiley) |
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| MJHanna |
Dec 9 2003, 07:00 AM
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#23
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Does this 911 make my butt look big? Group: Members Posts: 806 Joined: 23-January 03 From: Lowry Crossing, Texas Member No.: 185 |
I run 200lbs springs on the rear with 21mm bars. Dont listen to the stuff about a rear bar. You don't need it for ax and your realllllllly don't want it on the track. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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| Eric_Shea |
Dec 9 2003, 08:03 AM
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#24
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,304 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains  |
So, as the concensous shows... you either went too hot up front with your T-Bars (which I think a lot of people do) or too soft in back with the spring given the 22mm front t-bars your running. You could move up to a 200lb spring in the rear -or- put the 19mm's back in the front. Putting 19's in might defeat your idea of a "track" set-up that you can also use for autocross. (oops... just noticed it looks like a stock 914 suspension 17mm? Doesn't sound like the route you want to take anyway.)
For autocrossing (I haven't seen this mentioned in the thread... but I can be a bit blind) have you messed with your tire pressures front and rear to get the desired results? The car look amazingly flat out there on the course. Save your dough for; New Tires and possibly New Springs. Better yet... put them on your Christmas list and have the wife get them! |
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| cha914 |
Dec 9 2003, 08:54 AM
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#25
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MUSR 8 - 5lug conversion done wed - drive 500miles thrus Group: Members Posts: 739 Joined: 31-December 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 63 |
Thanks for all the replys guys! To answer a few questions: No LSD (I want one, but now your talking Big $$$), No rear bar, I bought the 22mm bars long before I knew any better and decided to throw them in to see what happened, the car came with the 22mm welt sway bar so I kept it, I put on the new rear springs and all the shocks and bushings.
I didn't mess with tire pressures at the event cause as was stated earlier "they are slicker than snot on a door knob" and I wanted to play with the koni's and not the tires. My first few runs I ran with the koni's full soft, just to get a baseline, then I ran them full hard and got my best time of the day. Then I tried running the front full soft and the rear hard, and I thought the car felt squirly, but its probably just my driving. After watching the fast cars, I think I was over driving the course for the most part, definately over driving the limits of the crappy tires. I realy want the car to be setup for the road course, Autox is fun, but the local club still doesn't have a good lot and their organization sucks...and driving 1-2 hours for 10min of seat time isn't my idea of a great ratio. I have to drive at least that or more to get to a track, but at least I will get a few hours of time. Anyway, I will put those tires on the christmas list, and after I get those I will look into bigger springs and/or smaller torsions and/or a rear bar ... and hopefully by the end of next year, I can afford some of mullers rollerbearings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif) Thanks again, Tony |
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| DuckRyder |
Dec 9 2003, 11:39 AM
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#26
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Avatars Mode: OFF because of the recalcitrant few. Group: Benefactors Posts: 767 Joined: 8-January 03 From: Georgia Member No.: 110 |
To add insult to injury, you really need two sets of tires to run autocross and open track. The hot autocross tires would probably only last about half a lap before they were too greasy to use on a road course, and the road race tires will not come to you before 1/2-3/4 of an autocross run depending on how fast the course is.
(And yes, that would be experience talking..................) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) (IMG:http://mishilo.image.pbase.com/u36/jetydosa/large/23770251.grid.jpg) (that's me with my back to the camera behind the 510 on road race compound Hoosiers, they worked good after spinning on the front straight.................too bad they didn't snap any photos of that...........) |
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| Brad Roberts |
Dec 10 2003, 01:48 AM
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#27
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
The guy has Empi 8 spokes. This means the largest possible tire under the car is a worn out Pirelli 195 ?
Buy wheels/and autoX tires.. then come back and ask after driving the car. Nothing above my post means SHIT until you get some real wheels/tires on the car. His current setup has won 20-30 SF region SCCA autoX events on 15x6 Panosports w/Hoosier Autox tires (74 2.0) B |
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| J P Stein |
Dec 10 2003, 03:41 AM
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#28
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Irrelevant old fart Group: Members Posts: 8,797 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Vancouver, WA Member No.: 45 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Dec 9 2003, 11:48 PM) The guy has Empi 8 spokes. This means the largest possible tire under the car is a worn out Pirelli 195 ? Buy wheels/and autoX tires.. then come back and ask after driving the car. Nothing above my post means SHIT until you get some real wheels/tires on the car. His current setup has won 20-30 SF region SCCA autoX events on 15x6 Panosports w/Hoosier Autox tires (74 2.0) B Tell me, Brad, did you bother to think before you wrote that crap or are you in your "I'm God" mode? You can take this whole BBS and shove it right up your ass. The hole is big enough to run the SF SCCA AX in. Bye now. |
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| redshift |
Dec 10 2003, 03:47 AM
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#29
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Bless the Hell out of you! Group: Members Posts: 10,926 Joined: 29-June 03 Member No.: 869 |
I am with JP, because.
M |
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| DrifterJay |
Dec 10 2003, 04:37 AM
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#30
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I break stuff... Group: Members Posts: 1,034 Joined: 25-May 03 From: Oceanside, California Member No.: 737 Region Association: None |
hey children, relax and play nicely (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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| Eric_Shea |
Dec 10 2003, 12:34 PM
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#31
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,304 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
QUOTE Tell me, Brad, did you bother to think before you wrote that crap or are you in your "I'm God" mode? I'd have to agree with the "content" of his statement, yet not the "spirit". By stating QUOTE Nothing above my post means SHIT until you get some real wheels/tires on the car. he in "essence" belittles the collective in response making most want to say (IMG:style_emoticons/default/finger.gif) BUT... he does have a qualifier in there which we might have missed; it's the word "UNTIL" and on that point I'm with Mr. Asshole (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If the tires really are that "bad" QUOTE they are slicker than snot on a door knob then the rest of the advice goes on the back burner "UNTIL" he get's some real rubber under his ride. Rejoice because after that all of our advice is back to being worth SHIT again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/givemebeer.gif) (and send my sway bar parts please) |
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| Brad Roberts |
Dec 10 2003, 12:38 PM
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#32
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
Sorry, straight off the plane. Should'nt have said a damn thing.
B |
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| Eric_Shea |
Dec 10 2003, 12:45 PM
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#33
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,304 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Awwwwwwwwe... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)
How can ya stay mad at him? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) |
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| Brad Roberts |
Dec 10 2003, 12:50 PM
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#34
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
I thought I was "done" being pissed off at life. Stayed off the computer for 4 days... should have stayed off another few before posting anything. It is amazing how a bad attitude shows in print.
B |
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| maf914 |
Dec 10 2003, 01:00 PM
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#35
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Not a Guru! Group: Members Posts: 3,049 Joined: 30-April 03 From: Central Florida Member No.: 632 Region Association: None 
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Hey, nobody suggested a set of Mueller's bearings.
Should those come before or after the new wheels and tires? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif) Mike |
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| Eric_Shea |
Dec 10 2003, 01:28 PM
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#36
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,304 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Mueller's bearings aren't worth SHIT until Brad says so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
(you're paying for it now Brad... welcome back!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) |
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| Brad Roberts |
Dec 10 2003, 01:29 PM
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#37
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914 Freak! Group: Members Posts: 19,148 Joined: 23-December 02 Member No.: 8 Region Association: None |
Yeah.. the welcome wagon has runeth over.
B |
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| cha914 |
Dec 10 2003, 01:41 PM
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#38
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MUSR 8 - 5lug conversion done wed - drive 500miles thrus Group: Members Posts: 739 Joined: 31-December 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 63 |
Ouch...well, actually I was able to get 205 new pirellis on there about 2 years ago, and as I said before, it was before I knew anything about tires...
I do have a set of 15x6 rims, with the correct offset (not panaoports, but you gotta start somewhere)... that I will be putting some v700's on when funds permit, at which time I will go flog the car and report back with the results. I was mostly looking for a direction to go in, and general thoughts on what was going on, I think I got that, and I thank you all for your replys... Brad, always a pleasure to get a responce, looks like you still have some of that straight shooting Texan blood still in you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) I love this state, now if only we could convince more people to build road courses instead of roundy round tracks it would be perfect (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) Yours, Tony |
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| Eric_Shea |
Dec 10 2003, 01:50 PM
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#39
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,304 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Tony, Tony, Tony...
See the shit storm you caused by not having the right tires on your car? Now go to your room! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) Geeeeeez... what are we gonna do with you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (I sure hope you get those tires for Christmas) |
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| fiid |
Dec 10 2003, 07:17 PM
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#40
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Turbo Megasquirted Subaru Member Group: Members Posts: 2,827 Joined: 7-April 03 From: San Francisco, CA Member No.: 530 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Dec 10 2003, 10:50 AM) I thought I was "done" being pissed off at life. Stayed off the computer for 4 days... should have stayed off another few before posting anything. It is amazing how a bad attitude shows in print. B My attitude is worse. Just ask my cow-orkers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/finger.gif) LOL. Cheer up dude. |
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