Ok, did the first autox with the new suspension on sunday, and I wasn't overly impressed with the results, but since I changed almost everything, I cant realy expect to have it right the first time.

So here goes, the car had very sluggish turn-in responce, and wanted to plow through every corner. I really couldn't even get it to rotate under trail braking. Here is the setup:

Koni Yellows all around
Poly bushings all around
Fully adj rear perches w/175lb springs
22mm solid torsion bars
22mm weltmeister front bar set full soft

Ride height = 4.75 up front and ~5.25 rear (measured to the donuts)
Camber = -1.5 up front -2 rear
Toe = 1/16th toe OUT up front and 1/16th toe IN rear

With the Koni's set to full hard the car seemed to improve a little, but not much. Also, the course was on a fairly slick parking lot, and I am running 2year old pirelli tires (205/50/15s with plenty of tread, just hard).

Finally, I want this car setup mostly for track driving, so I know autox performance is going to suffer some, but it seemed pretty poor overall yesterday (it was definately more fun with the ass up in the air sliding everywhere now I want it to be fast)

Any suggestions on where to go from here, or what to try in the future (I know I need better tires).

Tony

You might need heaver rear springs. Also, many people like closer to -2 camber up front and a tad less in the rear. A proper corner balance will also help

I agree with chris about more camber up front but I wouldn't change anymore hardware until you run the car on the track.

Auto-X setup is very different than roadracing setup. Most cars tend to plow at lower speeds.

Your setup looks pretty good as a baseline.

dr

I'd say it is the tires and a pretty good lack of grip. Since the suspension has been tightened up pretty well but you still have the same old tires that are slicker than snot on a glass door knob, they are now showing their true value. I'd say try some V700's or other new sticky tires and then you should have a good starting point. You could try shaving off most all of the tread on your old tires and there might be some soft rubber in there but I'd doubt it. Good luck.

I'm with stupid...er, Chris.
Better tires will just make it plow at a higher speed

I'm running 200lb (non progressive) rears & 21 mm T bars.
It still pushes in the tight stuff. I have a fair amount AR softening adjustment left and will do so for next season.
AFIK, 200 lb springs are as stiff as I can go with stock dia 914 (the big OD) springs. For my set-up (AX being the main focus), 225 or 250s would be better....*I think*.
The present set-up seems very nice for the big track.....dead neutral, but I ain't worth spit at that stuff.

Negative camber is good for tires that *require* it. Rspec Kumhos & Hoosiers fall into that catagory.

*sigh*

yeah, I need tires, but I have already bought 2 sets of tires the past 2 months (too many @@#$% cars) ... oh well, I guess I will try and shave these some (where is a drifting competition when you need one ) and then hopefully by Jan I will have enough coin for some V700's or something like that.

I am maxed out with camber up front untill I start cutting or get some expensive bling like JP...and in the rear, I am going to need to get some shims if I am going to lessen the camber without jacking the rear up...

I guess I am against going stiffer in the rear at the moment cause my co-driver thinks its too stiff as it is, but neither one of us are pros at this yet, and we havn't been on the track yet.

Would tires effect turn-in that much? I was expecting that to be much improved with the toe out in the alignment, but it really wasn't.

Thanks for the replys,

Tony

I would do this first. Do you have access to any scales? You really need to do this to establish your baseline.

Well, that is what you need more than suspention setup advice.. Track time.

Could be your just over cooking it into the corners. Though it does look to me like you have a relatively stiff front end for your rear setup, which would make it push.

-Aaron G.

Here are a few shots of the car in action...somebody at the event took several pics of my car!

lifting the inside front?

turn damit...turn ...

I guess I will leave it as is for now, and get some seat time on the track (and also try and get on some scales) ... but I have a couple quick questions:

i could just as easily go down to 19mm torsions, rather than put heavier springs on the rear...correct...similar result?
And two, many of you have said I am now under sprung in the rear, and I have seen several racers run very heavy springs in the rear, any particular one reason for this type of setup? or you guys just like really stiff cars?

Thanks again,

Tony

Does it have a rear bar?

For Autocross I think it needs one.

(I have no clue what it needs for open track)

If it were me, the first thing I would change is tires, then add a rear bar (even if was just someones cast off stocker)

Nope, no rear bar...I think I have actually heard that most autoxers don't use a rear bar...but maybe I am confused...

I agree though...I need tires before I do anything more with the car...

Dear Santa...

Tony

.....you need more rear spring..........

front is loose, tighten the back
back is loose, tighten the front

now, with the front already full soft, you've gotta go and get yourself some heavier rear springs.



Andy

Heavier rear springs keeps the inside front wheel on the ground. NOGO on rear bar, that'll lift the inside rear wheel...ulsess ya got LSD, you don't go any where....but the front will stay down.

AX life is hard.

a really good driver (one with lotsa ) once told me a rear bar for AX
can help you to get the ass sliding around the corner. but i think you have
to be REALLY good before you can take advantage of that. that's why i
don't have a rear bar in my car

Andy

I was also told that a rear bar was good for getting the ass to come around for AX and that it is easy to unhook it for track and street driving.

I don't know shit though - so don't listen to me on this particular topic. My GFs stiff sport package miata has a rear bar in it which I found quite suprising. It's only a dinky one though.

Fiid.

With 22mm bars up front you need to be running at least 200s and maybe even 250s in the rear. I was running my four cylinder car with 180 rears on Carreras, no rear bar, stock tbars up front and a 23mm sway bar set at half way. You could run a rear bar and for go the heavy springs, this could lead to lifting the inside rear tire though on a tight course.

What tire pressure were you running? Run as much caster as you can get, set the rear to zero toe and run as much camber as you can get. Run your fron tire pressure lower in the front than in the rear. Also set the front shocks to full soft and see what happens. Are you running with a full tank of gas? Lose the passenger your car will handle very differently with a passenger. Make sure you can grease the poly bushings and do so before each event. Are you running a limited slip?

Come to think of it.........
I encourage you all not to do what I suggest.

Should we ever meet at an AX, an old fart needs all the help he can get .

The disclaimer is that this is non-914 specific experience. I like a car tail happy for autocross, it helps a lot in the very low speed boxes that they like to set up. A car I had set up to my liking for autocross would be unsafe on the street and downright treacherous on a road course.

Well, there are definitely two schools of thought on suspension design.

The generally European school is heavy springs, stiff shocks, and little or no anti-sway bar. I have seen cars prepared in Europe for SCCA improved touring type of racing which had no anti-sway bars at all. The obvious downside is loss of ride quality. Advocates of this design say that the anti-sway bars defeat the independent suspensions ability to work properly.

The generally American school is slightly raised spring rates with good dampers for controlled but not overly stiff spring-shock combinations and BIG anti-sway bars. The obvious advantage is little loss of ride quality. Advocates of this design say that overly stiff springs impair the suspensions ability to react to small imperfections.

I find that I generally prefer the bigger sway bar approach, I my opinion it works better on less than perfect surfaces. I also feel it is a generally bad idea to mix the two schools of thought on the same car.

Nevertheless, perhaps I should rephrase my previous answer.

I think it needs a rear bar OR stiffer rear springs.

Again, there are some 914 specific replies so weight them accordingly.

(We need a cone smiley)

I run 200lbs springs on the rear with 21mm bars. Dont listen to the stuff about a rear bar. You don't need it for ax and your realllllllly don't want it on the track.

So, as the concensous shows... you either went too hot up front with your T-Bars (which I think a lot of people do) or too soft in back with the spring given the 22mm front t-bars your running. You could move up to a 200lb spring in the rear -or- put the 19mm's back in the front. Putting 19's in might defeat your idea of a "track" set-up that you can also use for autocross. (oops... just noticed it looks like a stock 914 suspension 17mm? Doesn't sound like the route you want to take anyway.)

For autocrossing (I haven't seen this mentioned in the thread... but I can be a bit blind) have you messed with your tire pressures front and rear to get the desired results?

The car look amazingly flat out there on the course. Save your dough for; New Tires and possibly New Springs. Better yet... put them on your Christmas list and have the wife get them!

Thanks for all the replys guys! To answer a few questions: No LSD (I want one, but now your talking Big $$$), No rear bar, I bought the 22mm bars long before I knew any better and decided to throw them in to see what happened, the car came with the 22mm welt sway bar so I kept it, I put on the new rear springs and all the shocks and bushings.

I didn't mess with tire pressures at the event cause as was stated earlier "they are slicker than snot on a door knob" and I wanted to play with the koni's and not the tires.

My first few runs I ran with the koni's full soft, just to get a baseline, then I ran them full hard and got my best time of the day. Then I tried running the front full soft and the rear hard, and I thought the car felt squirly, but its probably just my driving. After watching the fast cars, I think I was over driving the course for the most part, definately over driving the limits of the crappy tires.

I realy want the car to be setup for the road course, Autox is fun, but the local club still doesn't have a good lot and their organization sucks...and driving 1-2 hours for 10min of seat time isn't my idea of a great ratio. I have to drive at least that or more to get to a track, but at least I will get a few hours of time.

Anyway, I will put those tires on the christmas list, and after I get those I will look into bigger springs and/or smaller torsions and/or a rear bar ... and hopefully by the end of next year, I can afford some of mullers rollerbearings

Thanks again,

Tony

To add insult to injury, you really need two sets of tires to run autocross and open track. The hot autocross tires would probably only last about half a lap before they were too greasy to use on a road course, and the road race tires will not come to you before 1/2-3/4 of an autocross run depending on how fast the course is.

(And yes, that would be experience talking..................)



(that's me with my back to the camera behind the 510 on road race compound Hoosiers, they worked good after spinning on the front straight.................too bad they didn't snap any photos of that...........)

The guy has Empi 8 spokes. This means the largest possible tire under the car is a worn out Pirelli 195 ?

Buy wheels/and autoX tires.. then come back and ask after driving the car.

Nothing above my post means SHIT until you get some real wheels/tires on the car.

His current setup has won 20-30 SF region SCCA autoX events on 15x6 Panosports w/Hoosier Autox tires (74 2.0)


B

Tell me, Brad, did you bother to think before you wrote that crap or are you in your "I'm God" mode?

You can take this whole BBS and shove it right up your ass. The hole is big enough to run the SF SCCA AX in.

Bye now.

I am with JP, because.


M

hey children, relax and play nicely

I'd have to agree with the "content" of his statement, yet not the "spirit".

By stating he in "essence" belittles the collective in response making most want to say BUT... he does have a qualifier in there which we might have missed; it's the word "UNTIL" and on that point I'm with Mr. Asshole

If the tires really are that "bad" then the rest of the advice goes on the back burner "UNTIL" he get's some real rubber under his ride. Rejoice because after that all of our advice is back to being worth SHIT again (and send my sway bar parts please)

Sorry, straight off the plane. Should'nt have said a damn thing.


B

Awwwwwwwwe...

How can ya stay mad at him?

I thought I was "done" being pissed off at life. Stayed off the computer for 4 days... should have stayed off another few before posting anything. It is amazing how a bad attitude shows in print.


B

Hey, nobody suggested a set of Mueller's bearings.

Should those come before or after the new wheels and tires?

Mike

Mueller's bearings aren't worth SHIT until Brad says so.

(you're paying for it now Brad... welcome back!)

Yeah.. the welcome wagon has runeth over.


B

Ouch...well, actually I was able to get 205 new pirellis on there about 2 years ago, and as I said before, it was before I knew anything about tires...

I do have a set of 15x6 rims, with the correct offset (not panaoports, but you gotta start somewhere)... that I will be putting some v700's on when funds permit, at which time I will go flog the car and report back with the results.

I was mostly looking for a direction to go in, and general thoughts on what was going on, I think I got that, and I thank you all for your replys...

Brad, always a pleasure to get a responce, looks like you still have some of that straight shooting Texan blood still in you

I love this state, now if only we could convince more people to build road courses instead of roundy round tracks it would be perfect

Yours,

Tony

Tony, Tony, Tony...

See the shit storm you caused by not having the right tires on your car? Now go to your room!

Geeeeeez... what are we gonna do with you?

(I sure hope you get those tires for Christmas)

My attitude is worse. Just ask my cow-orkers.


LOL. Cheer up dude.

Quick update...just took the car on a 2hr run around the lake, and it felt really good. I wish I hadn't taken 10+months to finish the suspension so I could have a more direct comparison to the last time I drove that road.

However, the car felt very neutral, only on the tightest corners did the car push at all, and I was able to bring the rear out with the throttle. There were some pretty bumpy sections and the car did great over that even under full throttle (koni's set full soft). Overall the car felt great, and I was able to hang with my friends turbo miata (dynoed 230 rwhp) pretty well, he would pull away coming out of the corners, but I was right back on his ass in the corners ... Jake, that engine just keeps on pulling ... well past 6k ... I really need to hook up that rev limiter ... oh and oil cooler worked great again, still havn't gotten the temp above 190...however the real test won't be untill summer time...

The surface was much better than at the autox, and I wasn't pushing the car nearly as hard...so its really not a fair comparison, but I thought I would let you guys know anyway. Weather is supposed to be nice again tomorrow (60* and sunny), so the car will get another beating then.

Tony