Timing, something out of whack Options

[trojanhorsepower]

Help! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

This is pissing me off. Just for the record I did nothing to this motor (some one else did)inside the case. That said I have a 74 2.0 T-IV on an engine stand. I am just about ready to do the tin when I think lets double check the timing and get the distributor on. I start to turn the motor and find TDC for #1 then adjust the valves, then rotate the crank 180 deg. and Holly Crap there is like a 1/8th of an inch play in the intake rocker!! Piston is at or near the bottom. Does this mean what I think it means (cam is not in there right)? Some body, please tell me the obvious thing that I am over looking or doing wrong! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

Thanks
-Pete

[KenH]

Make sure you are turning the crank in the proper direction. Has I recall - turn it CW at the pully end or CCW from the flywheel end.

Ken

[trojanhorsepower]

OK I have been turning it CW if that is correct, but when I get a minute I will run out there and check it again.

Thanks

-Pete

[trojanhorsepower]

OK turning the motor CW and the intake valve opens on as the piston is going up! I can't think of any situation where that is a good thing. Please tell me soon if it is. I am about to take the entire motor apart to redo the cam timing.

Can I loosen the case bolts around the oil pump and take it out with out hurting anything (heads are on and torqued)? And then be able to see the timing marks on the gears?

Thanks

-Pete

[trojanhorsepower]

That is really sweat, 58 views and nobody wants to give me the bad news!

[thesey914]

I start to turn the motor and find TDC for #1 then adjust the valves, then rotate the crank 180 deg. and Holly Crap there is like a 1/8th of an inch play in the intake rocker!!  Piston is at or near the bottom.

Ok if you turn the motor through 180 then you are looking at another cylinder at its top stroke (cant remember which -think its #4) -

[r_towle]

Well,

I guess I would approach it like this...

Pull the valve covers and pull the rocker arms. push rods and keep them marked as to where they were and set them aside...I like to use a cardboard box with holes in it marked for each push rod, then set the rocker assembly in that box...same for both sides, different box though...

Now check to see if you actually have lifters installed, rotate the engine and verify that each lifter is working etc...

If this engine was rebuilt incorrectly, you may have to open the case, which is not a big deal if you have all the tin and fan off already...

If so, you could pull the head, PC's off without damaging them, you could re-use all of that if it was new before...

Then you need to completely open the case....it is not like an american car, you need to take off half of the case to get the cam gear out....

So....first, make sure you need to open the case by checking that the lifters are working/not working...

Then I would assume the worst and open it up...not worth all the effort of putting it back together and in the car only to find out it wont start at all....

Good luck, take pics and post here and I am sure we can get you through it without to much pain...

Rich

[trojanhorsepower]

Thanks guys,

I got the motor with the lower unit assembled, then I put on the P/C and top end, but I will start the take down like Rich said. I will take photos and post.
I wonder if Jake ever put a cam in wrong! Pobly not.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) PO

Oh well I started this project because I have alwaysed loved 914s and I wanted to learn about the VW aircooled motor. I guess I am getting one of those wishes.


-Petw

[thesey914]

I would do the oil pump thing and check if the timing marks are out before splitting the case.
"If" its possible to see the marks....-I've only taken the pump off to check which cam was in there and can't remember if you can actually see the marks.

[Brad Roberts]

It sounds to me like someone adjusted the valves with number 3 on TDC and not number 1.

B

[r_towle]

Good point Brad!!!!!!!!!!!

I didnt understand what was done or how it was done...

But....you could have put the dizzy in 180 degrees off..
then adjusted the valves incorrectly...

You might just want ot recheck all of that before you crack it open....could be something simple...

Rich

[Brad Roberts]

I have made the mistake twice in 3 months. Dont adjust the valves by the dizzy. You never know if someone installed it correctly or not.

Bring the "O" mark into the fan housing and check the "rock" on the number 1 and number 3 cylinders. If 1 is REAL loose and 3 is tight... then your on TDC for number 3 and the valves where done out of sync.

I really cant describe a easier way to the check this. I know what I'm looking for when I'm in front of the engine..

Like which rocker is about to open/close. TDC number 1 will just have the intake valve closing as the piston comes up on TDC and compression is beginning.

Something like: suck/squeeze/bang/blow... I forget how we where taught the 4 strokes.

B

[Jake Raby]

Yes! I have misaligned cam timing before!!

I have even seen BS timing gears with marks on the wrong teeth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, do this!

get to TDC on number 1. Make sure you are at true TDC as that is the position where the #3 cylinder will be on overlap Overlap is the position where both intake and exhast rockers are slightly tensioned, and any movement of the engine will actuate one of them..

Then adjust those 2 valves to your tolerance.

Then move the engine 180 degrees clockwise and go to the NUMBER FOUR cylinder(firing order is 1432) Then adjust those valves.

Then move the engine another 180 to NUMBER THREE and adjust those...... and then go to cylinder NUMBER TWO.

All the valve adjusters will need to be sitting about the same height when all is said and done..

Try this and let me know what happens. If the cam is out of time, I can give you a calculation and baseline to make sure.

I hate to see you bought something incomplete...Let the games begin!

ALL AT ONCE OR NOT AT ALL!!!!!

[trojanhorsepower]

Awsome!

I did the valves (never done it before) so that could well be it. I am printing out this thread then I am off to the garage.

Thanks everybody, I was starting to feel unloved (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

Jake: I know, I know, but I bought this whole car in boxes motor and all. It seemed like a good deal at the time and I can't affored to do it right all at once. Some day I will get one of your kits (I like tinkering) and build a real motor!

Thanks again

-Pete

[Brad Roberts]

From under the car.. I cheat and do them CCW with the fan or the car in 5th gear 1/2/3/4. On the stand 1/4/3/2 is pretty easy.. crawling around underneath from side to side gets old. I mark the flywheel for TDC and 180 out.


B

[trojanhorsepower]

Brad, if I ever get this figured out I will mark everything that will hold still for TDC and 180 out. Thanks for the tip.

I am at the shop now and I tried to find TDC for #1, the problem is that when the #3 cylinder is in overlap the piston for #1 is near the bottom of its stroke??? What does this mean?

-Pete

[thesey914]

Sounds like you're having trouble actually getting TDC on #1. If the "0" mark is not present on your fan then take out the spark plug and look down the hole or put a screwdriver in there to feel when the piston comes to the top of its stroke.

[Jake Raby]

I do it CCW also....1234, but no one else understands that!(atleast on line)

[trojanhorsepower]

Thesey914,

I don't have any plug in. What is the "O" mark. I don'd see anything like an "O". I just have the two lines in the crank pully. When the second one (going CW) is at the top the piston for #1 is at the top, but I don't think that lifter is on the back of the cam lobe? When I push the motor around to make certain that is TDC and not the top of the exhaust stroke, the rockers don't seem to cycle correctly, i.e. the intake opens and closes as the piston is on its way back up.

Thank

-Pete

[thesey914]

Hmmm, the "0" mark is on the fan -didn't realise it was not fitted yet. And if the fan housing is not fitted either then there's nothing to line the "0" up with.
The intake opening when the piston is rising sounds very peculiar. Logically the intake valve should only open when the piston is travelling down -IE in "suck" mode.
On a T4 it is just a case of lining up the timing marks, but I would think there would be some piston /valve contact if it was misaligned