Help!

This is pissing me off. Just for the record I did nothing to this motor (some one else did)inside the case. That said I have a 74 2.0 T-IV on an engine stand. I am just about ready to do the tin when I think lets double check the timing and get the distributor on. I start to turn the motor and find TDC for #1 then adjust the valves, then rotate the crank 180 deg. and Holly Crap there is like a 1/8th of an inch play in the intake rocker!! Piston is at or near the bottom. Does this mean what I think it means (cam is not in there right)? Some body, please tell me the obvious thing that I am over looking or doing wrong!

Thanks
-Pete

Make sure you are turning the crank in the proper direction. Has I recall - turn it CW at the pully end or CCW from the flywheel end.

Ken

OK I have been turning it CW if that is correct, but when I get a minute I will run out there and check it again.

Thanks

-Pete

OK turning the motor CW and the intake valve opens on as the piston is going up! I can't think of any situation where that is a good thing. Please tell me soon if it is. I am about to take the entire motor apart to redo the cam timing.

Can I loosen the case bolts around the oil pump and take it out with out hurting anything (heads are on and torqued)? And then be able to see the timing marks on the gears?

Thanks

-Pete

That is really sweat, 58 views and nobody wants to give me the bad news!

Ok if you turn the motor through 180 then you are looking at another cylinder at its top stroke (cant remember which -think its #4) -

Well,

I guess I would approach it like this...

Pull the valve covers and pull the rocker arms. push rods and keep them marked as to where they were and set them aside...I like to use a cardboard box with holes in it marked for each push rod, then set the rocker assembly in that box...same for both sides, different box though...

Now check to see if you actually have lifters installed, rotate the engine and verify that each lifter is working etc...

If this engine was rebuilt incorrectly, you may have to open the case, which is not a big deal if you have all the tin and fan off already...

If so, you could pull the head, PC's off without damaging them, you could re-use all of that if it was new before...

Then you need to completely open the case....it is not like an american car, you need to take off half of the case to get the cam gear out....

So....first, make sure you need to open the case by checking that the lifters are working/not working...

Then I would assume the worst and open it up...not worth all the effort of putting it back together and in the car only to find out it wont start at all....

Good luck, take pics and post here and I am sure we can get you through it without to much pain...

Rich

Thanks guys,

I got the motor with the lower unit assembled, then I put on the P/C and top end, but I will start the take down like Rich said. I will take photos and post.
I wonder if Jake ever put a cam in wrong! Pobly not.

PO

Oh well I started this project because I have alwaysed loved 914s and I wanted to learn about the VW aircooled motor. I guess I am getting one of those wishes.


-Petw

I would do the oil pump thing and check if the timing marks are out before splitting the case.
"If" its possible to see the marks....-I've only taken the pump off to check which cam was in there and can't remember if you can actually see the marks.

It sounds to me like someone adjusted the valves with number 3 on TDC and not number 1.

B

Good point Brad!!!!!!!!!!!

I didnt understand what was done or how it was done...

But....you could have put the dizzy in 180 degrees off..
then adjusted the valves incorrectly...

You might just want ot recheck all of that before you crack it open....could be something simple...

Rich

I have made the mistake twice in 3 months. Dont adjust the valves by the dizzy. You never know if someone installed it correctly or not.

Bring the "O" mark into the fan housing and check the "rock" on the number 1 and number 3 cylinders. If 1 is REAL loose and 3 is tight... then your on TDC for number 3 and the valves where done out of sync.

I really cant describe a easier way to the check this. I know what I'm looking for when I'm in front of the engine..

Like which rocker is about to open/close. TDC number 1 will just have the intake valve closing as the piston comes up on TDC and compression is beginning.

Something like: suck/squeeze/bang/blow... I forget how we where taught the 4 strokes.

B

Yes! I have misaligned cam timing before!!

I have even seen BS timing gears with marks on the wrong teeth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, do this!

get to TDC on number 1. Make sure you are at true TDC as that is the position where the #3 cylinder will be on overlap Overlap is the position where both intake and exhast rockers are slightly tensioned, and any movement of the engine will actuate one of them..

Then adjust those 2 valves to your tolerance.

Then move the engine 180 degrees clockwise and go to the NUMBER FOUR cylinder(firing order is 1432) Then adjust those valves.

Then move the engine another 180 to NUMBER THREE and adjust those...... and then go to cylinder NUMBER TWO.

All the valve adjusters will need to be sitting about the same height when all is said and done..

Try this and let me know what happens. If the cam is out of time, I can give you a calculation and baseline to make sure.

I hate to see you bought something incomplete...Let the games begin!

ALL AT ONCE OR NOT AT ALL!!!!!

Awsome!

I did the valves (never done it before) so that could well be it. I am printing out this thread then I am off to the garage.

Thanks everybody, I was starting to feel unloved

Jake: I know, I know, but I bought this whole car in boxes motor and all. It seemed like a good deal at the time and I can't affored to do it right all at once. Some day I will get one of your kits (I like tinkering) and build a real motor!

Thanks again

-Pete

From under the car.. I cheat and do them CCW with the fan or the car in 5th gear 1/2/3/4. On the stand 1/4/3/2 is pretty easy.. crawling around underneath from side to side gets old. I mark the flywheel for TDC and 180 out.


B

Brad, if I ever get this figured out I will mark everything that will hold still for TDC and 180 out. Thanks for the tip.

I am at the shop now and I tried to find TDC for #1, the problem is that when the #3 cylinder is in overlap the piston for #1 is near the bottom of its stroke??? What does this mean?

-Pete

Sounds like you're having trouble actually getting TDC on #1. If the "0" mark is not present on your fan then take out the spark plug and look down the hole or put a screwdriver in there to feel when the piston comes to the top of its stroke.

I do it CCW also....1234, but no one else understands that!(atleast on line)

Thesey914,

I don't have any plug in. What is the "O" mark. I don'd see anything like an "O". I just have the two lines in the crank pully. When the second one (going CW) is at the top the piston for #1 is at the top, but I don't think that lifter is on the back of the cam lobe? When I push the motor around to make certain that is TDC and not the top of the exhaust stroke, the rockers don't seem to cycle correctly, i.e. the intake opens and closes as the piston is on its way back up.

Thank

-Pete

Hmmm, the "0" mark is on the fan -didn't realise it was not fitted yet. And if the fan housing is not fitted either then there's nothing to line the "0" up with.
The intake opening when the piston is rising sounds very peculiar. Logically the intake valve should only open when the piston is travelling down -IE in "suck" mode.
On a T4 it is just a case of lining up the timing marks, but I would think there would be some piston /valve contact if it was misaligned

I have the fan on there so I can turn the motor. Also I put the fan housing on there once to see where the notches line up on the case, then took the housing off to make it easier to turn the motor. I have inspected the fan and can not find an "O" like I said, just the two timing lines.

Jake, turning it CCW made since, but when I do that the intake opens as the piston goes down
like it should but as the piston comes back up the exhaust valve opens???
Thesey914, I was afraid of piston/valve contact to, but I do not hear/feel any as I turn the motor.

Thanks for all the help

-Pete

Well if nobody has any more suggestions I will tear down the motor and redo the cam timing. Can I reuse my head gaskits or should I get some new ones?

Thanks again every body

-Pete

Not all fans have the O mark on it. The flywheel should have an arrow pointing forward on it also for TDC (unless it is a lightened flywheel)

I'm not quite sure why you are so eager to crack the case.

So far I have read nothing hinting at the fact that the cam is in wrong.

Feel free to pull it apart.. Digital pics would help a lot.

Adjust the valves and fire it up on the ground before it goes into the car. The worst it is going to do is pop and backfire out the intake or exhaust.

Even if the valve adjustment is off big time.. it will run and you will hear it clearly ...then shut it down.

Something else you havent said anything about: put it on what you think is TDC no.1 ..then tell me where the dizzy drive is pointing (take pics with throw away camera and have them developed onto CD). It will save you a boat load of time over cracking the engine.

B

turn it the other CCW. then it would work.

ie; exhaust valve opens as the piston goes up, then intake valve opens as the piston goes down. both valves are closed as the piston goes up (compression stroke) TDC Fire! piston goes to bottom, back to start.

I see no problem there. when the engine is turned where #1 should fire, make sure that if you put the dizzy in there it it will point to where #1 is supposed to be. if it doesn't, pull out the distributor timing gear under it and set it to where it will. Not uncommon at all for people to just change wire positions when the gear is not in right.

OK I know that I am not being clear.
Brad no one wants to take this thing down less than me.
The dizzy is wrong, I am almost certain of that since I installed it based on what the rockers were doing and not what the crank was doing.

Here are some photos
With the mark on the crank pully and the fly wheel up
piston is at the top
exhaust valve is slight ly open

Marks up
Piston up

Damn.. now I need to leave...DOH!


B

Rotate 180 deg. CW piston is down intake is slightly open

Pushrods are not sitting in the lifters correctly. If it was built on a stand or bench.. then you stand a chance of not getting the pushrods seated in the lifter bore. This will make it appear WAY our of whack.

Easy fix. Loosen the adjuster and put a flat blade screw driver under the pushrod and see if you can lift up on the push rod.

B

I rotate the engines over on their side when I drop the pushrods into the lifters. This lets me know quickly whether or not they are seated properly. Doing it with the engine in its natural position (flat) is a crap shoot. I can do it both ways.. because I know what it feels like when they are out.

Oh.. and not all of them could be off. It may be one or two.


b

damn try again

These pics are not helping.

I am going back to the shop and I will go throught the whole cycle.

Check the push rods............



B

I went and pulled the rocker arms and checked the push rods, they were seated properly (I put them in with the motor turned up).
Here is the cycle

Start:
Piston up crank marks up
exhaust valve is slightly open
Rotate CW as the piston goes down the exhaust valve closes
Piston at bottom and starts to come back up the intake opens closing when the piston
reaches the top
Continue to rotate CW and both valves stay closed as the piston goes up and down, as the piston reaches the top the exhaust valve begins to open, and we are back were we started.

Start
Piston at top rotate CCW

intake starts to open as piston goes down
closing when piston reaches bottom
as piston comes back up the exhaust valve opens closing when piston is at the top.
Continue to rotate and they both stay closed then it starts over.

-Pete

Sounds like you are starting at "overlap" not at "TDC" BIG DIFFERENCE.....

CW facing the fan or CW facing the flywheel ?


B

CW facing the fan

Correct. It sounds like you are not starting at number 1 but instead starting with number 3 at TDC (but your standing and showing us number 1 because you think you are on number 1 TDC)

Leave it like it is and adjust number 3.. then go to 2..


B

Brad, Jake
Thanks for all the help guys.

I will go out and try again.
What way does the engine turn when it is running?
Facing the fan will the fan go CW or CCW?

-Pete

The fan turns CW while facing it. In the car.. I grab the fan from the passenger side and pull it towards me (CCW) to adjust the valves.. if I dont use the 5th gear method.


B

We are confusing him....

the engines motion is clockwise. Thats why I stated that in my first post, so you would not get confused.

The engine fires 1432, clockwise......

basically when cyl#1 is a TDC, number 3 is at overlap and vice versa. valves cannot be adjusted at overlap.

OK I went out and spun it again looking at #3

Still facing the fan and turning it CW the Intake valve is remains open as the piston comes up (on any cylender). Surely this would push all the gas/air back out the intake manafold.

I have not worked on air cooled motors before what am I missing? Other than the hair that I am pulling out.

Grrrrrrrrr

-Pete

If that happens turning it CW and all the pushrods are seated correctly- The cam timing is off for sure! are you sure thats the intake valve? They are most inboard on both heads.

sounds like I might ned to ring you up before you tear into it.

Sorry guys, I was called away form the computer.

Yes I have checked repeatedly to be sure it is the intake.

I will tear down the motor tomorrow. What is the overall stand on the head gasket rings?
Lap the cylinders or use the rings. I have the rings in right now, but they are crushed I guess. I called Otto’s to see about ordering some and Steve said not to use them. The concept of no head gasket is very foreign to me, but what ever you all say, will be done.

Jake or anybody feel free to call PM or email. PM or email for # that way I will be sure to sit by the right phone.

Thanks again for all the help,

-Pete

My number is 706 219 4874. I'm here till 3 Am tonite.....

Running home to get cell phone (free long distance) your phone should ring in 3 min.

-Pete

Try to ring me again...... I heard you beep through but I didn't want to Answer it with a guy from Australia paying for long distance.

I still say pushrods.


b

Told him to triple check them.....

SO?!?! The 914 Soap Opera. Don't keep us in suspense. This is better'n T.V.

Did Pete call Jake? Did Jake diagnose the issue? Will Pete's car run soon?

Stay tuned for another thrilling episode of "As the TypeIV crank Turns".


P.S. - Beats working in this miserable pit.