Painting intake tubes, Does color make a difference? Options

[retrofit]

Is there any evidence that painted EFI intake tubes will make the engine run hotter/cooler depending on the color?
Over at 914 groups someone posted that when he painted his intake tubes black the engine ran 20* hotter.
So if you paint the tubes a light color (reflective, not absorbing heat?) it will run the same or, cooler?
I have seen nicely detailed engine bays where the plenum and intake was painted the body color. Could this be a functiional mistake? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[So.Cal.914]

Einstein, paging Dr Einstein...

Those darn teachers said math would save my life someday, should have paid more attention in physics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Johny Blackstain]

like i said, you might want to walk down to the library and pick up a book on quantum mechanics ...

heat and light are called different things because when man gave them those names they knew nothing about photons or subatomic particles.

the word "light" and "heat" have been around for a long time.
that does not mean anything, as both are man-made distinctions of the same thing, and not a fundamental difference in nature.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Andy

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) & somehow I agree w/ a good part of what you've said. They are man made distinctions of natural energy waves- what we can feel & what we can see. Technicaly if you remove the light spectrum from the equation I would suppose that the flat black finish will still absorb non light particles over the white surface @ a faster rate. But the black pot in the oven actually gets hotter than the white pot? I can buy it will get hot faster but how can it get hotter?
Oh yeah, why don't you mail me a book instead (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ? My legs hurt & I'm tired of walking right now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) .


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[SirAndy]

Oh yeah, why don't you mail me a book instead (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ?

try this one:

The Elegant Universe, by Brian Greene

it has a really good section on electromagnetic waves and how maxwell and einstein and planck eventually figured it all out and established todays quantum mechanics ...

it's all just electromagnetic waves ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif) Andy

[jaminM3]

but thats plastic dude.
totally different head.

Yeah, but if we are talking color, wouldn't they make them out of light gray or white plastic?

[914nerd]

I believe the distinction you are looking for is the difference between a photon and a phonon
The phonon is the vibration of a lattice (such as that present in any solid) and is "heat" in that it is representative of the kinetic energy in the material. The interactions with photons can produce more vibrations in the material (and thereby make it hotter)
The heat that you are talking about, though, is the heat being emitted from other parts of the engine bay. That absorbed heat is largely IR radiation.
And Andy, definitely a good book

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[/nerd]

[Johny Blackstain]

Quite frankly I'd paint them pink at this point just to change the subject (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .


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[por73914]

Quite frankly I'd paint them pink at this point just to change the subject (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .


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I thnk pink would drop the temp by 20 degrees... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[Demick]

But the black pot in the oven actually gets hotter than the white pot? I can buy it will get hot faster but how can it get hotter?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

There are many ways to add heat to an object. But for this discussion, lets just consider two: conduction and radiation.

In your oven (or your engine bay), both of these occur. Conduction is when the heating element heats the surrounding air. When the air gets hot, it passes some of it's heat to the object in the oven. Considering only conduction, the color of an object won't really matter. The object will only reach (or come close) to the temperature of the surrounding air. This is how most people think of an oven.

But there is also heat transfer occurring by radiation. Heat is radiated directly from the heating coils to any place in the oven that might absorb it. A black object will absorb this much better than a white object. So the black object will heat up faster, and can actually obtain a higher temperature than the surrounding air.

Does this make sense?

Just go outside and you will realize it for yourself. Go stand in the sun. Your skin temperature will quickly rise higher than the temperature of the outside air. This is because radiated heat from the sun is being absorbed by your skin. And this isn't all because of visible light. Remove visible light from the equation and you still have lots of other frequencies including infrared - which we all know works very well for transferring heat via radiation.

In reality, I don't think that conventional ovens do much heat transfer by radiation - but it is there. In contrast, a toaster oven does a large percentage of it's work by radiation. That's why you can cook a turkey pot pie in a toaster oven in under 10 minutes, but it still takes 20 minutes in a preheated oven.

[brer]

pink is definitely hot.

[Johny Blackstain]

There are many ways to add heat to an object. But for this discussion, lets just consider two: conduction and radiation.

In your oven (or your engine bay), both of these occur. Conduction is when the heating element heats the surrounding air. When the air gets hot, it passes some of it's heat to the object in the oven. Considering only conduction, the color of an object won't really matter. The object will only reach (or come close) to the temperature of the surrounding air. This is how most people think of an oven.

But there is also heat transfer occurring by radiation. Heat is radiated directly from the heating coils to any place in the oven that might absorb it. A black object will absorb this much better than a white object. So the black object will heat up faster, and can actually obtain a higher temperature than the surrounding air.

Does this make sense?

Just go outside and you will realize it for yourself. Go stand in the sun. Your skin temperature will quickly rise higher than the temperature of the outside air. This is because radiated heat from the sun is being absorbed by your skin. And this isn't all because of visible light. Remove visible light from the equation and you still have lots of other frequencies including infrared - which we all know works very well for transferring heat via radiation.

I thought this was my point? Color is relative to radiation, not conduction. However as Andy has so eloquently pointed out these are man made distinctions of electromagnetic energy. Take radiation out of the equation & the black pot still heats up faster than the white pot, cools down slower. But I still don't see it getting hotter. The oven is set @140*. It will take the white pot longer to get to 140* but when it gets there the black pot will still be at 140*... no?


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BTW- there goes my idea for a pink intake (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) .

[Katmanken]

Ya know, there is a reason they paint the top of the space shuttle white and the folding radiators in the cargo bay doors black......

It's done for a reason.....

That's why I'm painting the inside of the manifold black and the outside white and making all my engine tin out of Carbon Carbon so my engine compartment is always cool no matter how hot the engine gets.....

Ken

[Johny Blackstain]

Lesson learned- never argue Physics w/ a German (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .


Attention Admins- :whiteflag: is now a needed Smilie.


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[So.Cal.914]

Lesson learned- never argue Physics w/ a German (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .


Attention Admins- :whiteflag: is now a needed Smilie.


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[TonyAKAVW]

Well, the truth is that light is the abscence of dark. So really, anything 'radiating heat' is really 'sucking dark.'

So if you want the coolest coating, you have to use a color that sucks dark the most, because as we all know, its very cold on the dark side of the moon. This will give you the most phonoffs (the anti-vibration of a phonon).

Or, you could try blocking the Bloch waves.

-Tony

[SirAndy]

Or, you could try blocking the Bloch waves.

i tought you can only find those when you throw pebbles in a gravity well ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif) Andy

[messix]

chit !

i swear half of these posts sound like alphy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif) wrote them.

light is less absorbed by some "lighter colors". most visable light doesn't have any heat. only when the "light" excites a surface and cause the suface molucules to excite is it turned in to heat.

put a white pot and black pot in to a oven and as long as both coatings have the same properties except color they both will heat at the same rate.

now if you coated one with a coating of lets say the same stuff the is on the space shuttle [you now those BLACK tiles] that might not heat at the same rate.

'nuff i'm done.

let the nonsense continue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[John]

Heat is not light. Light can emit/project heat but where is the light in lets say a chemical hand warmer? Heat, the kind we're talking about- not radiated energy but absorbed, is the excitement of molecules in an object & there are other forms of energy that can excite molecules into a heated frenzy besides light; electricity for one. What color something is only relates to heat within the light spectrum- pour gas all over a white teener & a black teener & I don't think the color will really matter. Put 2 teeners in the sun & the black one will be hotter than the white one, period. We can't see infrared or ultraviolet but how those particles impact onto a surface is still going to be measured within & outside of the visual light spectrum. Cut the light out & that range of heat is removed. As to weather or not flat black absorbs more non-visual heat over white is what did not make sense to me. Poor choice of words on my part before.


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Sorry if this is a repeat, but I couldn't finish reading all the posts before posting....





Heat can be observed through infrared radiation.

Using infrared visualization (a camera or other means), heat can be seen. In an infrared heater, the reflectors (which direct the infrared radiation) are shiny and bright. The reflectors loose efficiency when they become dirty and are no longer reflective.

Heat is energy and always will give off infrared radiation. Sometimes the heat can give off light waves that are in the visual spectrum that can be seen by the human eye, but more often it is in the infrared spectrum.

Just because you can't see it, does not mean that it is isn't there.

The Infrared spectrum of wave forms acts just as the visible spectrum. I.E. bright objects tend to reflect and dark objects tend to absorb.

You can believe what you want, but if you want to live in reality, you will accept facts.

[John]

Geez, I almost forgot.

For all practical purposes, it will not matter what color you decide to paint your intake runners.

Your car is doomed to live out eternity on jackstands.


(Besides, once all the engine compartment comes to equilibrium, the color will matter not.)

Black bodies will heat faster and dissipate heat faster (but only due to radiation).

[Cap'n Krusty]

"Just because you can't see it, it's there"? Hmmmmm ............................
Therefore, it's there because you can't see it? I LIKE that! Does it follow that if you CAN see it, it's NOT there? This is getting FUN! Glad I paid attention in things like Geometry and Philosophy ............ The Cap'n

[John]

"Just because you can't see it, it's there"? Hmmmmm ............................
Therefore, it's there because you can't see it? I LIKE that! Does it follow that if you CAN see it, it's NOT there? This is getting FUN! Glad I paid attention in things like Geometry and Philosophy ............ The Cap'n

I have no clue what you are talking about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)