Should you responed to a jerk? Options

[TROJANMAN]

boy, I miss this place (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Eric_Shea]

Before we're all too quick to judge, we may want to look at it from both sides. I think there's a lot of grey area here.

I read through the post, even posted a reply myself on Kelly's beautiful car. I read through Pat's reply. He obviously knew it wouldn't be popular and tempered it as much as possible. It is a forum about originality and history... Pat is the moderator.

That being said here comes my "personal" feelings on the subject but, make no mistake this is Pat’s forum to do with what he sees fit;

I’ve enjoyed that forum in the past because, while I am bastardizing a solid 74 that I found in less than perfect condition, in spirit I am attempting to do as many "original" factory GT modifications/upgrades as possible. I want to find answers on the original seam sealer finish... should my posts be banished because my car isn't the way it came off the boat? I'm attempting to scrounge up some tool kit parts for this car and I naturally think of this forum... should I go away? When I'm finished with my car and I'm proud of the effort put forth to make it as authentic as possible to a factory GT... should I dare post a picture in that forum to show all those who helped me along the way? If Kelly went to a PCA event and showed his car; would there be a class that welcomes him there and because of his tremendous attention to detail and his James-like “drive to the event” spirit? Might he even win? Kelly has obviously shown his car at other “Concours D’Elegance” events and, has done very well. I believe the post ends with his recent admission to a Geneva. And finally, yes Kelly admits:

My car is far from original.

, but his very next sentence states

I love to show my car as often as possible.

It just seems odd that PCA and Geneva would welcome him (with Dockers of course) and 914World gives him the boot.

S'OK with me. I guess I won't be posting there much though.

This is "to the point" of my concern. There are those who cherish their cars, polish every bolt and spend countless amounts of money and time building and preparing them. There are those that could care less and bolt on a big sway bar and race the piss out of them. There are those who simple turn the key and head for a beautiful mountain pass on Saturday and there are those who turn the key and get to work every day. If we draw a line in the sand and say "you're not allowed" how can we encourage others to be excited about showing their cars?

Pat has made it clear that this forum is about originality and history. To that end, I see his point. It's Pat's forum and that's the way it will stay unless Pat see's the need to get more contributors by allowing all those who show their cars with pride.

[Scott S]

I dont disagree with the premise that a concour forum should be for concour cars. However, rude is rude - I dont care who or what you *think* you know, that does not give you the right to be an asshole. Your opinion could have easily been presented in far more productive way - a skill I would think would be a requirement to moderate a forum. The comment and the closing of the thread was rediculous.

Isn't part of your job to promote this activity/forum? You are falling painfully short.

[Ferg]

WOW Kelly, this sucks!

I think that Pat is/was way out of line. I think that the "title" of the forum has nothing to do with it. That forum IMO was meant to include cars like yours and mine, plain and simple. Restorations that improve upon the original design.

No matter if Pat likes it or not, you car is a multiple Concour winner, facts are facts. True, both of us would get waxed at parade by other cars due to lack of originality but that's not the point. You are participating, and adding joy to the site and got shut down for it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) I'm as pissed off as you...


I really hope you get a apology and the thread is re opened.

Ferg (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I would like to suggest that maybe the forum name Originality and History change to include the word "Show" or "Concour" be made, to clear up it's intended purpose.

What part of "originality and history, a forum for research and preservation of the 914 as it came from the factory" don't you understand? There are "concours" (note the spelling) cars and there are "show" cars. The former are always show cars, but the latter hardly ever are concours cars. You can have a wall, or even a room, full of trophys, but the ones that count in PCA (and the ones that matter to CWs and many other Porschephiles) are the ones earned in a concours d'elegance, NOT in "car shows". No matter how "nice" your car is, it might as well be a "lead sled" as far as winning a concours trophy. Furthermore, "peoples choice" awards count for NOTHING. Well, maybe they count for a "warm fuzzy feeling".

While the original poster may well be justifiably proud of his car, it has NO PLACE in a concours forum. While the remarks of the moderator may have been a bit insensitive, or even unkind, the person who put his totally inappropriate posting in that forum remains at fault for his actions resulting in the rebuke.

While I'm at it, where do you get the idea that a restoration includes things " that improve upon the original design"? Restoration is the act of returning something to it's ORIGINAL condition. IMPROVING something is just that; making it better. However, "improving" often tuirns into that ugly word often used as a synonym: "UPGRADE". Both are frequently misused. Most often, at least on these forums, both words are misstatements.


Am I being too Krusty here? Does the truth hurt? Have a nice day ................ The Cap'n

Spelling noted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

I stand by my original argument. It's not like Kelly is winning at your local sonic against Nova's ect. He's winning at OUR events and other respected concours.

I also agree, original cars should and will score better than a modified car. And at Parade level that will always be the case. Regional level there just is not the same level of competition. Same holds true to OUR events.

So just because we chose to modify our cars slightly, (and in the properly scored events we take the "hits") we are now banned from participating in a forum in part designed to help others with concours? That's Bull.

Originality and History yes, the forum should be based on those things, my point is that I believe that the forum was also intended for concours and like it or not his car is a proven concours winner.

Ferg. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

I dont disagree with the premise that a concour forum should be for concour cars

Herein lies the problem. Kelly's car would be "welcomed" in a Concours forum.

it has NO PLACE in a concours forum

Disagree. Many concours events have slots for cars like Kelly's (our very own PCA for one).

[Johny Blackstain]

Quite frankly I'm surprised it took him so long to shut you down.

I've never thought of doing this before but I'm going to quote myself first- I think I said it blunt & best here.

Eric is dead on balls accurate. Cap'n Krusty is dead on balls accurate. 1970 Neun vierzehn is not only dead on, but truely a damned good & eloquent writer. He found a beautiful way to say that Kelly was right & Pat lacked tact. I'm stickin my neck out just writing this but f*ck it- I'm Italian.

If you step back & think about this it's really Democracy in action. We all love our country, in this case the country being the 914. We all want to do different things w/ our country & in order to do that we have to cooperate & govern. Something to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) about.

OK- mow me over now, that's what America 914World is all about.


Edit: to be specific I'm Polish/Basque/Italian via Argentina & born in Virginia. I'm writing this to avoid any of the confusion that occured w/ my on-line name (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

This post has been edited by Johny Blackstain: Jul 17 2007, 11:57 AM

[woobn8r]

If a CW has a 914 that is judged a 96 point car ...is it deemed un-original and therefore banned?

Is Pats perfect 914 a 100 point car at each concours he attends? If not is he banished from the event...at what score do you ask an entrant to pack up and go home with his un-original 914?

Just because a 914 is a 65 point car (or less) it does not merit exclusion...it may not win at the BIG shows...but it's entered and should be welcome. He certainly does not deserve to be talked down to and his prior accomplishments dissed no matter how stuck up you are.

My $0.02
Sean

[ConeDodger]

I have met a few people who are like Pat. They are bewildered when they piss people off. While you might want to rid the world of them they sometimes do have expertise that is good to have around.

He is right Kelly. It is an Originality and History Forum. His statement on the forum might have been handled differently and that is where he approached being wrong. Personally, I would have PM'd you to let you know that you were in the wrong area. His last remark was the point at which he really pee'd on his shoes... You have an amazing car. You just don't have all the right stuff in your tool bag or the correct finish in your trunk or some such sin. It isn't a concours or car show forum. It is an originality and history forum...

That said, I think you do the same thing I do when you show up at the Concour events... My cars are very nice. I wash them and vacuum but never put the cue tip level effort into them that these guys do. Then, I place in the event. That pisses them off. I recall our CRAB event here in SVR this year. I was in charge of the Beer and Brat Party which was concurrent with the Concours. I had very little time for preparation. I quick washed the car after having gone on the Tour the day before which was a hundred miles of bugs and tar. I pulled it in to the parking lot, got out, left my camera in the back along with my sunglasses and took second in my class. One of the CW judges told me my car was disgusting. Basically, I beat her. So she is PO. Moral is, your trophies are your revenge. Wave them at Pat and laugh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

If a CW has a 914 that is judged a 96 point car ...is it deemed un-original and therefore banned?

It's not so much about score as those two cars are apples and oranges. It's about classification at any given event. As I stated in the previous post. There "IS" a PCA Concours D’Elegance class where Kelly would be welcome in Charlotte. Here's some notes from the PCA Parade Rules Book:

PERFORMANCE GROUP

PF03 All Series Street Modified (See Appendix I.)

Judging emphasis is on preparation (presentation and cleanliness). Originality will not be judged. The Kardex (build data sheet) for the automobile is not required and will not be examined by the judges.

(on Judging)

(d) Performance Group - This grouping contains the Thoroughbred Racers and All Series Modified. The build data sheet for the automobile is not required and will not be examined by the judges. Primary judging emphasis is on preparation (presentation, cleanliness). Originality is not judged.

Of all the 914's I've seen in person, Kelly's car could easily be a PCA "Performance Group PF03" winner. Congratulations Kelly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

[Cap'n Krusty]

Originality and History yes, the forum should be based on those things, my point is that I believe that the forum was also intended for concours and like it or not his car is a proven concours winner.

Ferg. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

"Concours winner" or "Car show winner". In what class? Against what competition? Under what rules? Not to be mean (and I'm sure it's a very nice car, of which the owner is justifiably proud), but "proven concours winner" can have many shadings ......... In the Porsche world, the term "concours" takes a considerably more narrow definition than in other areas of the car world.

BTW, in my region, and in zone 8, I think, the Parade concours rules are ALWAYS in effect. Just the level of competition varies. Lotta one car class winners at the local level. The Cap'n

[Ferg]

Originality and History yes, the forum should be based on those things, my point is that I believe that the forum was also intended for concours and like it or not his car is a proven concours winner.

Ferg. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

"Concours winner" or "Car show winner". In what class? Against what competition? Under what rules? Not to be mean (and I'm sure it's a very nice car, of which the owner is justifiably proud), but "proven concours winner" can have many shadings ......... In the Porsche world, the term "concours" takes a considerably more narrow definition than in other areas of the car world.

BTW, in my region, and in zone 8, I think, the Parade concours rules are ALWAYS in effect. Just the level of competition varies. Lotta one car class winners at the local level. The Cap'n

See Eric's post above...

Ferg (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

Those are "Parade Rules" I posted above so... to answer your questions:

In what class? = Performance Group PF03
Against what competition? = We'll have to see who can beat him if Kelly goes to Charlotte
Under what rules? = PCA Parade Concours
In the Porsche world, the term "concours" takes a considerably more narrow definition than in other areas of the car world. = Appearantly not. Only here (where the "Elite Meet" does that seem to ring true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jasfsmith]

I dont disagree with the premise that a concour forum should be for concour cars

Herein lies the problem. Kelly's car would be "welcomed" in a Concours forum.

it has NO PLACE in a concours forum

Disagree. Many concours events have slots for cars like Kelly's (our very own PCA for one).

For what my two cents is worth...

Kelly's car is a top notch resto-mod from what I can see and he desrves credit for his efforts. However, I fail to note where the posting was tied to the forum's topic other than it (the car) is a Concours winner. I wish Kelly had added dicussion on how he reached that level of perfection, tips in his prepration, judging observations during the event, etc.

Give me more than sharp pictures and credentials. <grin>

Gimme a path to follow to the same success!

[Eric_Shea]

Gimme a path to follow to the same success!

You need a path to success?? Paaaaaaaleeeeeeease (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

(folks, if you don't follow the forum... this be the guy who drove his awesome 914-6 across country to win in San Diego!!)

Path to success...

[kart54]

Well,

I'm going to stick my nose in here and I know I shouldn't. but what the heck.

The section is originality and history. Therefore, cars that are completely original meaning no new paint, no new upholstery and no engine rebuild should be the winner in any original class and the only cars allowed there.

No matter if you repaint with original paint and take the car down to bare metal for a respray it is not the "original" car as it came from the factory, it is now a reproduction of the original paint and the original car.

This little argument in semantics has been going on for quite some time on a Cobra board I frequent. There is one of Carol Shelby's cars that he and others drag raced for years. It has acquired a certain patina over those years. Some argue it should be restored others argue it should be left as is. It is still being shown despite well worn but very functional paint and interior. There is no doubt that it is the most original Cobra at any of the shows it goes to. Is it concours? No, but is it original? More so than any of the cars that have been painted, polished and had the interiors redone. They are restored cars not original or particularly historic even if done with factory parts. Those parts, paint, interiors etc. are not original to the car.

Having said that I don't see one car in that forum that is original or even particularly historic. Concours? Yes, original or historic? No.

My other point is that if you are a moderator you need to have a certain amount of restraint, tact and intelligence in your actions. If Pat is that big a car geek then maybe he should work on his car more and moderate less.

Having said the above, I've met a lot of people in person like Pat. Otto of Otto's in Venice comes to mind and as characters in person they are some of my favorite people. They just don't come across well on the internet.

I hope Pat apologizes for his insensitive comments, reopens the thread and we can all move along with our lives once again.

Just my 1/2 cent worth.

Randy,
Ventura
" Car 54 Here I Am" SCCA G prod 914

[Jasfsmith]

Gimme a path to follow to the same success!

You need a path to success?? Paaaaaaaleeeeeeease (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

(folks, if you don't follow the forum... this be the guy who drove his awesome 914-6 across country to win in San Diego!!)

Path to success...

As I've said many times before. My car is a 5 footer. I work hard at distracting any judge that gets closer than 5 feet.... Those who have looked at it closer can attest to that. <grin>

BTW, This year's "infamous" demerit was for having the fuel filter (a clear plastic one at that) in the engine compartment, and not a metal cylinder near the fuel pump. I'm still researching this one.

[computers4kids]

As of this date, this forum is evolving - thankfully! It's primary purpose now is to promote and provide information available for preservation and/or restoration to original spec 914's (both). 914 discussion here is NOT intended to be solely for the CW (I REALLY hate that designation!).
If you have even a passing interest in, or have quetsions conceerning originality on 914 models, this is the place:

Original owner & want to impart your wisdom - your place!

Not the original owner, but want to be certain it's kept so - your place!

Restoring & have originality questions - your place!

Thinking about dipping your toe into the concours waters - your place!

Veteran of concours - your place!

Just an originality geek - your place!

Converting a four to a six - may be your place, if you want it to look "real"

Putting a "subie" or "chebbie" into your 914 - go to the Garage Forum (no slam to those who do, but this is NOT the place).

Flame on! You can always have the moderator fired. And, I WILL moderate at my discretion.

Pat, you might want to read the "intended purpose" that you posted for the forum you moderate. I appreciate your zeal and knolwedge, but I believe you have forgotten your roots and are alienating people who visit this forum and are out-of-line with the spirit of the "914World" site.

When Andy created this forum he titled it "Welcome," perhaps you might want to retitle this forum with conditions and re-write your "inteded purpose."

Pat, you are the moderator and have every right to "use your best judgement" as as you oversee the O/H fourm...just remember, there are people behind the screen names we lurk behind--people with feelings.

[TJB/914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

When my (2) children have a fight it hurts me more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) . I put the same ingredient into each one, but they are different!! I don't take sides I just love them both the same.

With that said, the Pat & Kelly thing makes my heart sad. Pat & Kelly are my friends & I hope they understand everyone's concern. Words mean something & sometimes people say words that hurt a persons pride & joy (914). Do we have a group hug smilie??

Tom

[akellym]

Let me state this again... I have no problem with Pat not wanting my post over there. My problem is with how it was handled. Pat didn't hurt my feelings, I just thought he was an ass for his statements.

I thought that forum included things about concours( why does everyone spell this wrong) I wasn't trying to brag, I was just starting a thread about my car. This is the 1st year I've done PCA concourses and I have been amazed at how well recieved 914's are at these events. I was hoping to get more of you guys to start showing your cars. I think 914's should be at every concours, in force! They always seem to draw a crowd at the events I go to.

I started the thread in part because of my acceptance to the the Geneva Concours d'Elagance. I didn't not apply to this show on my own. I was asked to apply for this event by the Porsche rep from Chicago that I met at a Porsche dealer show. Now I may be wrong about this, but it's my understanding that it's a "big" deal just to get in at this event. So anyways I just thought I would share my excitement about this and keep a thread going on how my car did at concourse events. That said if a admin would like to move that thread over to here, that would be great.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Rand]

914 discussion here is NOT intended to be solely for the CW (I REALLY hate that designation!).

Is that quote really from who it suggests? Reality check.

Wow. I can see both sides of this, to some degree. But when the BS starts to divide our people, that's when it gets a little sick and twisted. Makes me wonder if some of the people on the extremes should chill and find more rewards in this life from PEOPLE than the STUFF on our cars.