I'll start this by saying I don't have any problem with someone telling me that I've posted something in the wrong forum. That being said...

The other day I posted in the originality/preservation forum. I found a lot of info on concours stuff there. I made the mistake of posting some info about my car there, the winnings and concours I've been to. I thought it was relative to the forum as far as concours stuff. My topic title "Not original but a winner!"

Pat closed the thread. No big deal with me, until I read the last paragraph.

"self imposed accolades" kiss my ass!! Those "accolades" were given(not imposed, you ass) to me by my peers. I only posted them to show that you can win car shows and concours event with out being original or "preserved".

So Pat I'll just say I'm sorry for posting in your forum and I think your a for your last paragraph. Hope I didn't hurt your feelings.

See if he wants to race.

Pat, I don't get it.....no need for comments like that.

Seems a bit uncalled for, possibly even anal.

Oh, congrats on your car.

Ok, let's see a pic of the car in question. I have a non-original 914, but there are aspects of it that are very original. I have posted questions over there before, I don't see why you would get a thread shut down.

in any community, there is a huge number of different people, attitudes, opinions, personalities, .... you need to have a thick skin and not get offended. heck, wait 'til you get slammed by the Cap'n

While I'm not a concourse person, I do understand where Pat is coming from. With that being said his comments, to me anyway, would have pissed me off also. I know like many others on this site, Kelly goes to great pains to keep his beloved 914 in top condition. I have seen it in person many times at different 914 meets.
The thing that I'm amazed at is he drives to all these events and keeps the car in great condition.

Here is Kelly's car at the FFC05 in Nashville Indiana.

I'm sorry to have to disagree w/ you but IMHO you're the one who was wrong. The entire point of the forum is in the title. Your car is gorgeous but hardly original or historical. Quite frankly I'm surprised it took him so long to shut you down. The Garage is the appropriate forum for showing off such a fine babe like your Teener. Put her back the way she came from the factory & post away in the O&H forum. Otherwise, she does not belong there. Not trying to be a d*ck here, but the Admins have made it his forum for a reason; having the balls to close down a popular thread that has nothing to do w/ the main subject of the forum might be one of those Admin reasons.

Perhaps the Admins could start a new forum for modified Teeners? I find it interesting how this could be tied into McMarks' latest survey on competition judging. Do we need a forum for every division? Possibly a concours forum that discusses exactly that & not the relative condition of a car, but the concours event, proceedures & awards themselves?

Pat has made some bonehead statements in the past. Seems he will continue to due so.

Kinda proves the point about the whole q-tip crowd.

What's not original about it, I also have seen Kelley's car a few times , outside of the west coast classic plate in front and beautiful paint color all over it sure fooled me, I thought for sure it was a 914.

Pat was out of line with his comment, he could of handled it much differently with
some tact and less prejudice.

Best to move on and stay out of his forum.

WOW Kelly, this sucks!

I think that Pat is/was way out of line. I think that the "title" of the forum has nothing to do with it. That forum IMO was meant to include cars like yours and mine, plain and simple. Restorations that improve upon the original design.

No matter if Pat likes it or not, you car is a multiple Concour winner, facts are facts. True, both of us would get waxed at parade by other cars due to lack of originality but that's not the point. You are participating, and adding joy to the site and got shut down for it I'm as pissed off as you...


I really hope you get a apology and the thread is re opened.

Ferg

I would like to suggest that maybe the forum name Originality and History change to include the word "Show" or "Concour" be made, to clear up it's intended purpose.

Wow...where do you even start with this one? A simple, "Even though it isn't totally original, it is a supurb 914" would have worked much better. Kelly, I saw your car at Moab last year. It is an awesome car. I think it is abundantly clear who is WAY out of line here. I hope you get an apology.

Hi Kelly,

Sorry to hear about your issues with the moderator. I don't know him but I've read how he comes across and he isn't very nice sometimes in the black and white world of cyberspace. If the moderator disagreed with something you wrote, why not just PM or e-mail you offline? Why take it public?

Very disappointing. But the moderator does dictate what is posted and read in the forums they moderate, so there's not much you can do.

I suggest you don't respond back as it probably won't do much in the way of helping the situation. There are hundreds of folks like me here who can appreciate the effort you have put into your 914 and the pride you should feel for being recognized for it at car events. Stay in the garage or paddock with the majority of us. While a personal attack from a 914 World moderator reflects poorly on the site as a whole, it really is no different than any other social or business enterprise. 914 World has a large following and with it comes all kinds of diversity. Just avoid the folks that you don't agree with and enjoy the other 99%!

BTW, nice car!

Bill P.

Pat has gone to great effort to keep his 914 absolutely pure, and he wants his forum the same way. S'OK with me. I guess I won't be posting there much though. That sure is a purty teener Kelly.

They seem to have a different set of standards on that side of town. You are more than welcome over here.
CCLIN914NATION

:can-o-worms:

Why close the thread?

listed in the rules thread


why not just label it OT or move it to the garage?



kelly the car does look nice

Kelly,
I've seen your car in person, and I am surprised there is no picture of it next to This Definition in Webster's:



Will you make Moab again this year?

What part of "originality and history, a forum for research and preservation of the 914 as it came from the factory" don't you understand? There are "concours" (note the spelling) cars and there are "show" cars. The former are always show cars, but the latter hardly ever are concours cars. You can have a wall, or even a room, full of trophys, but the ones that count in PCA (and the ones that matter to CWs and many other Porschephiles) are the ones earned in a concours d'elegance, NOT in "car shows". No matter how "nice" your car is, it might as well be a "lead sled" as far as winning a concours trophy. Furthermore, "peoples choice" awards count for NOTHING. Well, maybe they count for a "warm fuzzy feeling".

While the original poster may well be justifiably proud of his car, it has NO PLACE in a concours forum. While the remarks of the moderator may have been a bit insensitive, or even unkind, the person who put his totally inappropriate posting in that forum remains at fault for his actions resulting in the rebuke.

While I'm at it, where do you get the idea that a restoration includes things " that improve upon the original design"? Restoration is the act of returning something to it's ORIGINAL condition. IMPROVING something is just that; making it better. However, "improving" often tuirns into that ugly word often used as a synonym: "UPGRADE". Both are frequently misused. Most often, at least on these forums, both words are misstatements.


Am I being too Krusty here? Does the truth hurt? Have a nice day ................ The Cap'n

I've known Pat Garvey personally for over 30 years. We have shared much over those many years. His wife, Jan, my wife Linda, Pat and I have gone on vacations together, shared countless meals, we have stayed under their roof many times, and I have been on the receiving end of his beneficence relating not only to matters 914, many times.

With that said, I can also relate that I have been, and still am on, the wrong end of his approval rating for my 914. The chastisement and criticism that I get from Pat regarding my 195/60 tires, Euro T/L lenses, SE/LE airdam, H-4 H/Ls and A/M steering wheel is constant and never-ending. Pat could be considered the "Concours Nazi" (sorry if I offended anyone with that appellation.) Pat jealously guards and protects the "purity" and sanctity of the OEM 914 with religious zeal.

Pat is also working his way through the dictionary. He has mastered the ABCs (abuse, belligerent, caustic) through S (sarcasm) and has not yet gotten to the letter "T" (tact, tolerance). I cut Pat lots of slack 'cause I know him so well.

Kelly's 914 is wonderful not only in its presentation and appearance ( I have seen it up close) but also in the fact that he drives and enjoys using his car. From what I've seen, the car is in concours condition, but not by any means original. Sort of what you might classify as "improved/custom".

So where am I going with all this? I'm with Pat that Kelly's car by all means merits Forum space, but not necessarily on the O/H section. That said, however, those of us who frequent there could certainly learn from Kelly on how to maintain a pristine car. So in that sense, yes , that striking 914 can be featured there.

And Pat? Pat is being Pat. I accept him for just as he is and look past any shortcomings he may manifest, just as he tolerates all my foibles.

Finally I apologize to anyone if I've offended with my remarks or categorizations and any appearance that I'm taking sides. However, Pat remains my friend.

Paul

boy, I miss this place

Before we're all too quick to judge, we may want to look at it from both sides. I think there's a lot of grey area here.

I read through the post, even posted a reply myself on Kelly's beautiful car. I read through Pat's reply. He obviously knew it wouldn't be popular and tempered it as much as possible. It is a forum about originality and history... Pat is the moderator.

That being said here comes my "personal" feelings on the subject but, make no mistake this is Pat’s forum to do with what he sees fit;

I’ve enjoyed that forum in the past because, while I am bastardizing a solid 74 that I found in less than perfect condition, in spirit I am attempting to do as many "original" factory GT modifications/upgrades as possible. I want to find answers on the original seam sealer finish... should my posts be banished because my car isn't the way it came off the boat? I'm attempting to scrounge up some tool kit parts for this car and I naturally think of this forum... should I go away? When I'm finished with my car and I'm proud of the effort put forth to make it as authentic as possible to a factory GT... should I dare post a picture in that forum to show all those who helped me along the way? If Kelly went to a PCA event and showed his car; would there be a class that welcomes him there and because of his tremendous attention to detail and his James-like “drive to the event” spirit? Might he even win? Kelly has obviously shown his car at other “Concours D’Elegance” events and, has done very well. I believe the post ends with his recent admission to a Geneva. And finally, yes Kelly admits: , but his very next sentence states It just seems odd that PCA and Geneva would welcome him (with Dockers of course) and 914World gives him the boot.



This is "to the point" of my concern. There are those who cherish their cars, polish every bolt and spend countless amounts of money and time building and preparing them. There are those that could care less and bolt on a big sway bar and race the piss out of them. There are those who simple turn the key and head for a beautiful mountain pass on Saturday and there are those who turn the key and get to work every day. If we draw a line in the sand and say "you're not allowed" how can we encourage others to be excited about showing their cars?

Pat has made it clear that this forum is about originality and history. To that end, I see his point. It's Pat's forum and that's the way it will stay unless Pat see's the need to get more contributors by allowing all those who show their cars with pride.

I dont disagree with the premise that a concour forum should be for concour cars. However, rude is rude - I dont care who or what you *think* you know, that does not give you the right to be an asshole. Your opinion could have easily been presented in far more productive way - a skill I would think would be a requirement to moderate a forum. The comment and the closing of the thread was rediculous.

Isn't part of your job to promote this activity/forum? You are falling painfully short.

Spelling noted

I stand by my original argument. It's not like Kelly is winning at your local sonic against Nova's ect. He's winning at OUR events and other respected concours.

I also agree, original cars should and will score better than a modified car. And at Parade level that will always be the case. Regional level there just is not the same level of competition. Same holds true to OUR events.

So just because we chose to modify our cars slightly, (and in the properly scored events we take the "hits") we are now banned from participating in a forum in part designed to help others with concours? That's Bull.

Originality and History yes, the forum should be based on those things, my point is that I believe that the forum was also intended for concours and like it or not his car is a proven concours winner.

Ferg.

Herein lies the problem. Kelly's car would be "welcomed" in a Concours forum.



Disagree. Many concours events have slots for cars like Kelly's (our very own PCA for one).

I've never thought of doing this before but I'm going to quote myself first- I think I said it blunt & best here.

Eric is dead on balls accurate. Cap'n Krusty is dead on balls accurate. 1970 Neun vierzehn is not only dead on, but truely a damned good & eloquent writer. He found a beautiful way to say that Kelly was right & Pat lacked tact. I'm stickin my neck out just writing this but f*ck it- I'm Italian.

If you step back & think about this it's really Democracy in action. We all love our country, in this case the country being the 914. We all want to do different things w/ our country & in order to do that we have to cooperate & govern. Something to about.

OK- mow me over now, that's what America 914World is all about.


Edit: to be specific I'm Polish/Basque/Italian via Argentina & born in Virginia. I'm writing this to avoid any of the confusion that occured w/ my on-line name .

If a CW has a 914 that is judged a 96 point car ...is it deemed un-original and therefore banned?

Is Pats perfect 914 a 100 point car at each concours he attends? If not is he banished from the event...at what score do you ask an entrant to pack up and go home with his un-original 914?

Just because a 914 is a 65 point car (or less) it does not merit exclusion...it may not win at the BIG shows...but it's entered and should be welcome. He certainly does not deserve to be talked down to and his prior accomplishments dissed no matter how stuck up you are.

My $0.02
Sean

I have met a few people who are like Pat. They are bewildered when they piss people off. While you might want to rid the world of them they sometimes do have expertise that is good to have around.

He is right Kelly. It is an Originality and History Forum. His statement on the forum might have been handled differently and that is where he approached being wrong. Personally, I would have PM'd you to let you know that you were in the wrong area. His last remark was the point at which he really pee'd on his shoes... You have an amazing car. You just don't have all the right stuff in your tool bag or the correct finish in your trunk or some such sin. It isn't a concours or car show forum. It is an originality and history forum...

That said, I think you do the same thing I do when you show up at the Concour events... My cars are very nice. I wash them and vacuum but never put the cue tip level effort into them that these guys do. Then, I place in the event. That pisses them off. I recall our CRAB event here in SVR this year. I was in charge of the Beer and Brat Party which was concurrent with the Concours. I had very little time for preparation. I quick washed the car after having gone on the Tour the day before which was a hundred miles of bugs and tar. I pulled it in to the parking lot, got out, left my camera in the back along with my sunglasses and took second in my class. One of the CW judges told me my car was disgusting. Basically, I beat her. So she is PO. Moral is, your trophies are your revenge. Wave them at Pat and laugh...

It's not so much about score as those two cars are apples and oranges. It's about classification at any given event. As I stated in the previous post. There "IS" a PCA Concours D’Elegance class where Kelly would be welcome in Charlotte. Here's some notes from the PCA Parade Rules Book:

PERFORMANCE GROUP

PF03 All Series Street Modified (See Appendix I.)

Judging emphasis is on preparation (presentation and cleanliness). Originality will not be judged. The Kardex (build data sheet) for the automobile is not required and will not be examined by the judges.

(on Judging)

(d) Performance Group - This grouping contains the Thoroughbred Racers and All Series Modified. The build data sheet for the automobile is not required and will not be examined by the judges. Primary judging emphasis is on preparation (presentation, cleanliness). Originality is not judged.

Of all the 914's I've seen in person, Kelly's car could easily be a PCA "Performance Group PF03" winner. Congratulations Kelly

"Concours winner" or "Car show winner". In what class? Against what competition? Under what rules? Not to be mean (and I'm sure it's a very nice car, of which the owner is justifiably proud), but "proven concours winner" can have many shadings ......... In the Porsche world, the term "concours" takes a considerably more narrow definition than in other areas of the car world.

BTW, in my region, and in zone 8, I think, the Parade concours rules are ALWAYS in effect. Just the level of competition varies. Lotta one car class winners at the local level. The Cap'n

See Eric's post above...

Ferg

Those are "Parade Rules" I posted above so... to answer your questions:

In what class? = Performance Group PF03
Against what competition? = We'll have to see who can beat him if Kelly goes to Charlotte
Under what rules? = PCA Parade Concours
In the Porsche world, the term "concours" takes a considerably more narrow definition than in other areas of the car world. = Appearantly not. Only here (where the "Elite Meet" does that seem to ring true.

For what my two cents is worth...

Kelly's car is a top notch resto-mod from what I can see and he desrves credit for his efforts. However, I fail to note where the posting was tied to the forum's topic other than it (the car) is a Concours winner. I wish Kelly had added dicussion on how he reached that level of perfection, tips in his prepration, judging observations during the event, etc.

Give me more than sharp pictures and credentials. <grin>

Gimme a path to follow to the same success!

You need a path to success?? Paaaaaaaleeeeeeease

(folks, if you don't follow the forum... this be the guy who drove his awesome 914-6 across country to win in San Diego!!)

Path to success...

Well,

I'm going to stick my nose in here and I know I shouldn't. but what the heck.

The section is originality and history. Therefore, cars that are completely original meaning no new paint, no new upholstery and no engine rebuild should be the winner in any original class and the only cars allowed there.

No matter if you repaint with original paint and take the car down to bare metal for a respray it is not the "original" car as it came from the factory, it is now a reproduction of the original paint and the original car.

This little argument in semantics has been going on for quite some time on a Cobra board I frequent. There is one of Carol Shelby's cars that he and others drag raced for years. It has acquired a certain patina over those years. Some argue it should be restored others argue it should be left as is. It is still being shown despite well worn but very functional paint and interior. There is no doubt that it is the most original Cobra at any of the shows it goes to. Is it concours? No, but is it original? More so than any of the cars that have been painted, polished and had the interiors redone. They are restored cars not original or particularly historic even if done with factory parts. Those parts, paint, interiors etc. are not original to the car.

Having said that I don't see one car in that forum that is original or even particularly historic. Concours? Yes, original or historic? No.

My other point is that if you are a moderator you need to have a certain amount of restraint, tact and intelligence in your actions. If Pat is that big a car geek then maybe he should work on his car more and moderate less.

Having said the above, I've met a lot of people in person like Pat. Otto of Otto's in Venice comes to mind and as characters in person they are some of my favorite people. They just don't come across well on the internet.

I hope Pat apologizes for his insensitive comments, reopens the thread and we can all move along with our lives once again.

Just my 1/2 cent worth.

Randy,
Ventura
" Car 54 Here I Am" SCCA G prod 914

As I've said many times before. My car is a 5 footer. I work hard at distracting any judge that gets closer than 5 feet.... Those who have looked at it closer can attest to that. <grin>

BTW, This year's "infamous" demerit was for having the fuel filter (a clear plastic one at that) in the engine compartment, and not a metal cylinder near the fuel pump. I'm still researching this one.

Pat, you might want to read the "intended purpose" that you posted for the forum you moderate. I appreciate your zeal and knolwedge, but I believe you have forgotten your roots and are alienating people who visit this forum and are out-of-line with the spirit of the "914World" site.

When Andy created this forum he titled it "Welcome," perhaps you might want to retitle this forum with conditions and re-write your "inteded purpose."

Pat, you are the moderator and have every right to "use your best judgement" as as you oversee the O/H fourm...just remember, there are people behind the screen names we lurk behind--people with feelings.

When my (2) children have a fight it hurts me more . I put the same ingredient into each one, but they are different!! I don't take sides I just love them both the same.

With that said, the Pat & Kelly thing makes my heart sad. Pat & Kelly are my friends & I hope they understand everyone's concern. Words mean something & sometimes people say words that hurt a persons pride & joy (914). Do we have a group hug smilie??

Tom

Let me state this again... I have no problem with Pat not wanting my post over there. My problem is with how it was handled. Pat didn't hurt my feelings, I just thought he was an ass for his statements.

I thought that forum included things about concours( why does everyone spell this wrong) I wasn't trying to brag, I was just starting a thread about my car. This is the 1st year I've done PCA concourses and I have been amazed at how well recieved 914's are at these events. I was hoping to get more of you guys to start showing your cars. I think 914's should be at every concours, in force! They always seem to draw a crowd at the events I go to.

I started the thread in part because of my acceptance to the the Geneva Concours d'Elagance. I didn't not apply to this show on my own. I was asked to apply for this event by the Porsche rep from Chicago that I met at a Porsche dealer show. Now I may be wrong about this, but it's my understanding that it's a "big" deal just to get in at this event. So anyways I just thought I would share my excitement about this and keep a thread going on how my car did at concourse events. That said if a admin would like to move that thread over to here, that would be great.

Is that quote really from who it suggests? Reality check.

Wow. I can see both sides of this, to some degree. But when the BS starts to divide our people, that's when it gets a little sick and twisted. Makes me wonder if some of the people on the extremes should chill and find more rewards in this life from PEOPLE than the STUFF on our cars.

Pat are you reading all this and have nothing to say for yourself?

Like,

Gianni Negromacula?

Paul

I think it would be Giovanni but you got the Nergromacula right on! Schwartzenfleck, Manchanegra, Koho-ele-ele it's all the same. A nasty black stain that just won't go away .

I like "Skippy"...

Kelly- "...sometimes you just have to give a jerk his dog crap back." See link. Hang in there, John

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-DomnRg72Q

Well, hello there -

I read you too have been bitten - I seem to attract a few from time to time as well. As far as the responding part, I have tried every possible response with absolutely no change in outcome - First and foremost, well, I started a while back to just smile and be nice and ask questions....

This was not always the case, and as Aaron and a few others might attest - well, umm, I could get ugly. - just it was a hair trigger self-defense move....

But, almost, and I must stress "almost" everytime I end up

I have experienced it all - even having someone I have never 'spoken' to, come out and say very, very nasty things to me -

Now, I can honestly say, especially living in South Florida - that those kinds of people, well, you will never - ever get away from

So in the interest of keeping peace and all, well, I just do this now -

So what if they are jerks - they were the jerk "FIRST" right???

So well then Happy, HAVE SOME FUN WITH IT........

I can't stand it ..... Oh the drama



more please

that is tooooooo funny

It is "kinda" funny but it reeks of a major corporation's ad agency attempt at "Viral". Hagar Slacks?

OK, my 4 cents.

The post originally really doesn't belong in the Originality and History forum. And Pat's reply is very similar to other posts he's made. He knows he's a stickler. He knows it can be unpopular but that's just him.

The difference between posting here and writing to customer service or sending an e-mail is that the forum is moderated. Pat also is involved at 914club and at 914purist. He has answered numerous PM's I've sent him with questions about my car. And he does it for free.

This place is like having a family. Hey, maybe it's like being married, like every day is a good day but SOME days are better than others! But you just hang in there, let it roll off your back, post in a different forum.

But I for one will not be like the people who write letters to the editor, canceling their subscriptions because of on article they read and didn't like. So I'm here to stay.

I think the post could have been simply moved to the regular forum, but that's just me. I think Pat tried to handle it as diplomatically as he normally does but I don't think he was flaming, he wasn't way out of line, and most importantly, I don't think he behaved out of character.

Finally, I don't think it's appropriate to call another member a jerk. It starts to sound like another one of those "AA horror story" posts where everyone can chime in and take sides and agree that someone is or isn't an a*hole. Like being family, let's move on.

It is a pretty car and like you said, no where near original! Let's hear more about your wins in the Garage or even in the Show Us Your Car section.

Paul