dmenche BULL, split from the 914 value thread Options

[brer]

oh yea, a hummer has less embodied energy than a prius.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[toon1]

WOW! The poor guy,(gfulcher) who made the comment in the first place, will never want to post here again! I'm sure by now he feels personally attacked.! I do have to say, I attacked him first about his views on enviromental concerns, sorry about that.

The real point of his post was about the values of 914's dropping.

I still stand on what I said origanally, This save the planet kick is hypocritical. Where I live I see thaousands of new homes built every day. The development is out of control in CA. population growth is at an all time high and there seems to be no end to it. Traffic is a nightmere 24/7. But yet I see nothing being done to stop or slow the progress because of enviromental concerns.

When I see all the people who are concerned about the enviroment, treehuggers and the like, destroy their cars, sell their house, move into a cave in the mountains, use no electricity generated from and powerplant that has dammed a river, grow their own food and live off the land, I will THINK about being a good steward to the planet.

Right now all I see is a big push for the "next new thing". There will be ton's of people jumping on the get rich quick band wagon, promotors will( and already have) throw concerts for a green enviroment,the stars will fly to and from the venue in their prvate jets, line their pockets and go back to their 6000+ sq. ft. energy wasting home, in the middle of a mass metropolis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

You know, the other day I read a news artical, it stated that there is a movement to stop planting rainbow trout in the rivers in CA. because enviromenalists are worried they are eating too many insects. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

Hey gfulcher, sorry for attacking you, no offense.

Keith

[brer]

I still stand on what I said origanally, This save the planet kick is hypocritical. Where I live I see thaousands of new homes built every day. The development is out of control in CA. population growth is at an all time high and there seems to be no end to it. Traffic is a nightmere 24/7. But yet I see nothing being done to stop or slow the progress because of enviromental concerns.

When I see all the people who are concerned about the enviroment, treehuggers and the like, destroy their cars, sell their house, move into a cave in the mountains, use no electricity generated from and powerplant that has dammed a river, grow their own food and live off the land, I will THINK about being a good steward to the planet.

Keith

There are people who go out of their way to minimize their lifestyle.
You should try it. It saves alot of money and makes your food taste better.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toon1]

I still stand on what I said origanally, This save the planet kick is hypocritical. Where I live I see thaousands of new homes built every day. The development is out of control in CA. population growth is at an all time high and there seems to be no end to it. Traffic is a nightmere 24/7. But yet I see nothing being done to stop or slow the progress because of enviromental concerns.

When I see all the people who are concerned about the enviroment, treehuggers and the like, destroy their cars, sell their house, move into a cave in the mountains, use no electricity generated from and powerplant that has dammed a river, grow their own food and live off the land, I will THINK about being a good steward to the planet.

Keith

There are people who go out of their way to minimize their lifestyle.
You should try it. It saves alot of money and makes your food taste better.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Are you talking about the people in Berkley right now sitting in Starbucks drinking a Chi latte discussing global warming? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Belive me brother I want nothing more than to get out of the rat race, go into the hills and live off the land. NOT because of enviromental reasons, I prefer that lifestyle. I just may do it after I raise my daughter.

[brer]

I'm leaving this thread with a qoute from an old philosopher.



"if you are so unhappy with whats on your plate then go out and shoot your own dinner!"

[toon1]

I'm leaving this thread with a qoute from an old philosopher.



"if you are so unhappy with whats on your plate then go out and shoot your own dinner!"

I have and will continue too.... see ya on another thread...Keith

[Brian Mifsud]

This whole "Stewardship" concept is based on the assumption that the garbage spewed by the media is scientific and not POLITICAL in nature.

NOT driving a car to spare Carbon Emissions is in my view, a passive act, and does little except satisfy a media-induced "guilt" that we are all environmental criminals. The internet provides easily accessible "soap-boxes" so you can completely assuage your guilt by making everyone know you did a "good deed". This is just LAZY, and really ineffective.

Population continues to grow. The net Carbon Emissions is higher with more consumers. I don't necessarily buy in to the "global warming" theory as it is yet to be proved that this isn't a normal cycle the earth does anyhow (it destroys itself almost entirely every now and then).

If you care one bit, and want to actively DO something that produces REAL results... go to your nursery and buy a couple flats of tree seedlings. Go find some open space you like to take walks in and plant them. Take a water can with you each day you go for a walk (at least during summer) and water them. Put some kind of anti-deer protection on them and take responsibility to "STEWARD" these trees to fend for themselves (a year or so).

One full grown tree can process enough CO2 to produce Oxygen for a family of 4 for one year!

Keep driving your 914.. those trees need their nutrition!!!

[SGB]

I love it!

Thanks Brian.

You are right, but every REAL contribution does help. Those things add up. You are also right that too many people only pay lip service to the needs, and think that makes them good environmental stewards. This has been a long standing gripe I have about the Sierra Club and similar organizations. Its like Al's Carbon credits. Aparently we have finally decided that everything- even existance- is a commodity.

It isn't complicated. Just don't fowl your nest. Thats a lot more than can be said for many people.

[Demick]

The analysis that always brings it home is this.
A typical lifespan of a solar photo voltaic panel is less than the time it takes for that panel to create more "free energy" then it consumed to create that panel in the first place.

Rich

Rich

That's an interesting analysis. But even that analysis is biased. Sure, it may take more energy to produce the PV panel than it will produce over a lifetime. However, it does produce more energy than it took to deliver that amount of energy to your house - and that's what's more important.

For every KWH of electricity delivered to your house, it took quite a bit more energy to get it there. All of the losses getting from the power plant to your house (not even considering the infrastructure and all the energy that took to build). Then the energy it too to build the power plant, the inefficiency of turning fossil fuels into electricity, etc etc.

So the PV panel doesn't need to produce more energy than it took to make to be more efficient than your current electricity source. Overall efficiency is the main goal.

I remember one professor in college said that it takes more energy to build a nuclear power plant than that plant will ever produce over it's lifetime. Seems hard to believe. So why build the power plant at all? It's so that every home doesn't have a gas powered generator sitting in the back yard which would be much less efficient, and much more polluting.

[Brian Mifsud]

I remember one professor in college said that it takes more energy to build a nuclear power plant than that plant will ever produce over it's lifetime. Seems hard to believe. So why build the power plant at all? It's so that every home doesn't have a gas powered generator sitting in the back yard which would be much less efficient, and much more polluting.

That's part of the answer.. the other part is never addressed in Engineering Curricula..the economics of SELLING power. Your power bill will show higher charges per KWH depending on the TIME OF DAY. Peak demand hours is when they make the big bucks. They have the power at a time when you need/want it most.. so they can charge multiples of what it cost to build the plant (over a 20-30 lifetime of the plant).

Keeping a load on a Nuke is important, as in most Steam Plants (even fossil fueled units).. they don't like having to slow down, then speed up again. This is why some plants sell their power really cheap at night to Citys/Water Districts that pump the water from a lower to upper reservoir at night, then generate power during peak hours when they let it fall during the day. HUGE net WASTE of energy..no doubt.. but it provides the juice when it pays the best.


A similar attitude is applied to Electric Cars. All engineers know it is a big waste of energy... converting any form of fossil fuel/biomass to electricity, then taking the efficiency hits for transmitting the power, storing it (batteries), discharging the batteries, and running an electrical motor... all yield far less "Mechanical" energy than burning the fuel in a engine right in the car.... But, as in LA.. they REAL motivation is LOCAL pollution. They love to hide their heads in the sand and ignore that they must be polluting elsewhere at some Power Plant in the Central Valley, or on the Coast (San Onofre Nuclear). The motiviation is not efficiency, its once again, political.

Don't look to CARB for guidance on doing what is better for the earth.. they exist only to reduce pollution in the LA Basin.


Instead, look to the "evil hate group" known as Boy Scouts Of America. "Leave No Trace" is SOP, and they have planted more trees in this country than any "Environmental" group under the sun.

[Demick]

Instead, look to the "evil hate group" known as Boy Scouts Of America. "Leave No Trace" is SOP, and they have planted more trees in this country than any "Environmental" group under the sun.

Yeah, but they openly discriminate against homosexuals, so that's not a politically correct bandwagon to jump on.

Demick
Eagle Scout

[Allan]

I have found this entire thread (especially the relevant parts) totally beyond the limits of good (my) taste.

Please delete...