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> Wheels and Tires, Let's get this discussion centralized
Jasfsmith
post Aug 8 2007, 08:55 AM
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QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Aug 7 2007, 11:19 PM) *


3. Will they be accepted, regardless of proper sizing by concours judges?

Pat


They shouldn't be, however as you know, it really dependents on how knowledgeable the judge is in such things on 914's.

I won't say a thing about anything incorrect on your car to the judges, however I will bring to their attention special items (such as correct tires) on mine. <grin>

Shell out the added $$ Pat and get the period correct tire for the Concours wheels. It will likely be a one time purchase....
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Porsche Rescue
post Aug 8 2007, 10:01 AM
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One more time James: (my need is for a '69 912 but don't hold that against me) It sounds like the two closest to OE choices in 2007 for a car originally equipped with 165HR 15 tires (my owners manual shows pics of the Dunlop "dogbone", which I guess is the SP57) are the Vredestein at $89 from Coker or the Michelin XAS at $191 + tube. Is that correct?
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Jasfsmith
post Aug 8 2007, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE(Porsche Rescue @ Aug 8 2007, 12:01 PM) *

One more time James: (my need is for a '69 912 but don't hold that against me) It sounds like the two closest to OE choices in 2007 for a car originally equipped with 165HR 15 tires (my owners manual shows pics of the Dunlop "dogbone", which I guess is the SP57) are the Vredestein at $89 from Coker or the Michelin XAS at $191 + tube. Is that correct?


Those are the only two that I've come across so far.

Did the 912 come with a 4 1/2" or 5 1/2" wheel? The reason I ask is I mounted a set of 165HR15's on my 914-4, and it was squirelly. Felt like the sidewalls were rolling under when ever I made a turn at any speed.

BTW, I'd never hold your owning a '69 912 against you. If I had the $$$ and could locate one, a '69 912 would be at the top of my list.
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Porsche Rescue
post Aug 8 2007, 01:56 PM
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'69 was 5.5 as was '68; 66 & 7 were 4.5
As I mentioned, I had the super cheap Kuhmo 165's on a 66 911 with 4.5's and it was fine. However, I tend to drive my old cars pretty gingerly. Still not sure what I will do with the 912. I was holding my nose and preparing to spend on the Michelin xzx's but after all the discussion here I may just go with a 195/65. I have this thing about originality which is why I am returning to chrome wheels and hub caps rather than the Fuchs which are now on the car. I thought I should go all the way and get 165's. Maybe the Vredestein 165HR's, $192 less than the Michelins.
My car will never enter a true concours. Maybe an occasional "shine and show" where the judges would be clueless.
I do use the car for local PCA tours and sometimes push it a bit. Maybe the modern 195's, hell, I don't know!
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1970 Neun vierzehn
post Aug 9 2007, 10:12 AM
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This whole business of perfectly sized, branded and tread patterned tires for a 914 for concours presentation bothers me to some extent.

When the 914 was manufactured, it was produced to a price point (as are virtually all cars except maybe the Bugatti 16.4). The 914 being an entry level car, high performance tires were not in the specification, nor was the tire technology of today available.

The purpose of our cars is to be driven and enjoyed in the manner for which they were designed. With that in mind, in contemporary use, wouldn't you want the best tires that you could afford with the necessary concessions for fitment?

Pat and I have discussed the safety aspects of braking distance variations on current model automobiles and he has expressed the relevance of even mildly shorter braking distances from one make/model to another, Pat's contention being that a 6 foot shorter braking distance from one car to another could mean the difference between having an accident or avoiding one.

With the above stated, therefore, on your way to Parade 2008, or perhaps a 914 World event, or perhaps just driving to work, if some mindless, self-aborbed doofus vaguely aware of driving her luxury SUV while chatting idlely on her cell phone wanders into the path of your treasured 914, wouldn't you want as big a contact patch and as sticky a tire as could be utilized on your 5.5 rims? Or perhaps you are out with your car and suddenly you get caught in a downpour, would you not want to have tires that are current in their design to provide the wet-weather traction and anti-aquaplanning characteristics that are going to provide for a safer and more maneuverable auto? And finally, the greater adhesion provided with a tire that has both a bigger contact patch and a more agressive tread pattern is going to give me a bit more lateral grip so that perhaps I won't have to "white-knuckle" the steering wheel when some Dodge Durango or Honda Civic starts climbing up my tailpipe in the twisties.

I admit to running on 195/60 15s. They look good, fit well, appear not out-of-character to the 914s' design and I have had the pleasure(?) of using the brakes/tires in extremis to avoid a collision. I don't think that 165s would have given me the margain I needed in that situation.

So I'll take the point loss for my lack of OEM spec tires, traded gladly for the improvement in driving performance that they provide.

Paul
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Porsche Rescue
post Aug 9 2007, 10:42 AM
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All very true and well said Paul.
On the "price point" issue, I am still puzzled about the "H" rated tire on the standard 4 cyl. 914. Does anyone have that documented? I bought a new 914 in '70 and would have sworn the tires were S rated. My 912 does state H tires in the spec. section of the owner's maual. And we know H's came on the six and the LE.
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Jasfsmith
post Aug 9 2007, 11:48 AM
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QUOTE(1970 Neun vierzehn @ Aug 9 2007, 12:12 PM) *

This whole business of perfectly sized, branded and tread patterned tires for a 914 for concours presentation bothers me to some extent.

When the 914 was manufactured, it was produced to a price point (as are virtually all cars except maybe the Bugatti 16.4). The 914 being an entry level car, high performance tires were not in the specification, nor was the tire technology of today available.




I wouldn't take exception to your logic if not for the "pure" (Pat will like that word) nature of a Preservation Class in a Concours, AND the law in Maine that dicates that the original tire specs be maintained on all replacement tires for inspection purposes.

If this sounds like a rehash of one of my prior ramblings, bear with me. Maine has been a stickler for correct autombobile OEM acceptable tires for the past few years. Inspection stations have been cited for failure to comply with the law, and tire sales and service won't even quote you on a tire that they know is not meeting OEM specs, let alone mount them. The only way around it is to purchase tires mail order, and mount them yourself, or find a tire service center that will mount them for you (wheels delivered off the car), and then pray that the inspection station misses the tire OEM check. I believe this all came about during the time frame that SUV's were rolling over from incorrect tire sizes.

Now if Porsche would just issue a notice of what current tire sizes are acceptable for earlier Porsche's (as they do with recent models) then we would be golden. I'll bet that Maine is not the only state with the law on the books.




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Jasfsmith
post Aug 9 2007, 11:51 AM
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QUOTE(Porsche Rescue @ Aug 9 2007, 12:42 PM) *

All very true and well said Paul.
On the "price point" issue, I am still puzzled about the "H" rated tire on the standard 4 cyl. 914. Does anyone have that documented? I bought a new 914 in '70 and would have sworn the tires were S rated. My 912 does state H tires in the spec. section of the owner's maual. And we know H's came on the six and the LE.


My '70 914-4 came with 155SR15's on steel wheels (4 1/2").
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Jasfsmith
post Aug 9 2007, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE(Porsche Rescue @ Aug 8 2007, 03:56 PM) *

I do use the car for local PCA tours and sometimes push it a bit. Maybe the modern 195's, hell, I don't know!


If you were happy with the Kumo's on a 4 1/2" rimmed 911, then you should be equally happy with them on a 912 (less rear end weight).

I certainly wouldn't dismiss the Vredestein's just because of the name. It might be comforting to confirm with Coker Tire that their vintage tires are manufacturered with contemporary fabrications materials and methods with molds from the past (as I understand it), from a performace and safety view point.

BTW, don't forget to factoring the cost of tubes if you go the XAS route.



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1970 Neun vierzehn
post Aug 9 2007, 12:27 PM
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QUOTE(Jasfsmith @ Aug 9 2007, 09:51 AM) *



My '70 914-4 came with 155SR15's on steel wheels (4 1/2").


The same EOM was on my '70/4, and I'm not going to tiptoe around on that tire/rim combination again.

Paul
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Johny Blackstain
post Aug 9 2007, 01:25 PM
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I wonder if George can have a custom gas tank sticker made for me that says 195/65HR15... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)
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Pat Garvey
post Aug 9 2007, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Aug 9 2007, 11:52 AM) *

It seems to me that if you are serious about an event, the thing to do is have the appropriate wheels and tires and a set of drivers.

I know the price seems to be an issue here but... is it really? The proper Michelins for a couple hundred bucks a corner? I'd hate to lose a competition over $800 clams. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

If you are planning on driving it as Pat and Paul suggest, there's absolutely no argument that you can fit a better compund, tread pattern and a more agressive size under your stock bodied car. Is it safer? You bet your @$$ it is. For the most part... tires are brakes, as to Paul's example.

All that being said, tires are saftey and wear items. I would think they would be judged differently in Preservation vs. Restoration. People should not be nicked for having the safest available equipment (within reason... I realize a full cage would be safe than not) on a driver.

Eric,
Paul hit the nail on the head, as did you. Better compound,tread = safety. You're comment about not being nicked for more contemporary tires for the preservation class is a good one (anyone from the PCR Committee listening here?).

But there are a couple of problems from MY perspective:
1. I don't want to trailer my 914, which means I have to DRIVE on the retrospective tires. Further, I'd really like to autocross too. That's out of the question with retro tires. Well, a waste of time & tires anyway.
2. No matter what, I'll put 195/60's on my chromes for street driving (another chucnk of bucks)
3. I currently have mounted on my steelies a 28 year old set of Pirelli CN36's. They have less than 5k miles on them, no tubes, hold air & look great (regardless of what Sir Andy says). I also have a 15 year old set of A008r's on my chromes - best tire I've ever had. Maybe 1000 miles. Also function perfectly. No. Iwouldn't trust either set to make the trip to Charlotte - my point is, I buy tires & never get my money's worth from them. So, why should I invest $1,500 bucks in a set of old tech tires that will be useless in 8-10 years.

As you can tell, I'm having real issues with this aspect. Probably more than anything else. No. definitely more than anything else. Problem is, I want a division win. Had two class wins at Parade, but no division win.

The PCR' have me all tied up in knots. Worst case, I'll foot the bill for tires I don't want & will throw away in 5-8 years. I know he heavies I have to beat, in P & R classes & I'll do what it takes. Just wish it didn't have to cost so much for so little.
Pat
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Jasfsmith
post Aug 10 2007, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Aug 9 2007, 08:57 PM) *

The PCR' have me all tied up in knots. Worst case, I'll foot the bill for tires I don't want & will throw away in 5-8 years. I know he heavies I have to beat, in P & R classes & I'll do what it takes. Just wish it didn't have to cost so much for so little.
Pat


Sounds like you'll be buying at least one set of tires. Purchase the Vredestein's mount them on your steelies, and drive them. $80/tire is about what you would spent on a decent contemporary tire anyways.

And besides, at our age, eye hand coordination preclude our being competitive in an autocross. Oh, and are your ready to shell out a few hundred dollars for a new helmet? <sigh>
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Pat Garvey
post Aug 10 2007, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE(Jasfsmith @ Aug 10 2007, 01:48 PM) *

QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Aug 9 2007, 08:57 PM) *

The PCR' have me all tied up in knots. Worst case, I'll foot the bill for tires I don't want & will throw away in 5-8 years. I know he heavies I have to beat, in P & R classes & I'll do what it takes. Just wish it didn't have to cost so much for so little.
Pat


Sounds like you'll be buying at least one set of tires. Purchase the Vredestein's mount them on your steelies, and drive them. $80/tire is about what you would spent on a decent contemporary tire anyways.

And besides, at our age, eye hand coordination preclude our being competitive in an autocross. Oh, and are your ready to shell out a few hundred dollars for a new helmet? <sigh>


Speak for yourself old person (heh, heh)! I have friends that are 70 & still auocross & win consistently. One has a Carrera Speedster & the other a GT3. The one with the GT3 is also a DE instructor.

My eye-hand coordination is still pretty could, though it could use some re-training. And yep, I'd spring for the helmet. I think my current one is something like Snell 1928 approved!
Pat
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Porsche Rescue
post Aug 10 2007, 02:31 PM
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James, are you saying that the 165HR Vredesteins would be as "correct", or even more "correct", than the Michelin XZX 165SR's, and $48 per cheaper?

While I say I was happy with the Kuhmo's on the 911 with 4.5" wheels, I had them mostly for the vintage look and low price and I never drove the car hard. I felt a wider low profile tire on 4.5's would be too "pinched".
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Jasfsmith
post Aug 11 2007, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE(Porsche Rescue @ Aug 10 2007, 04:31 PM) *

James, are you saying that the 165HR Vredesteins would be as "correct", or even more "correct", than the Michelin XZX 165SR's, and $48 per cheaper?




Yes, as your manual indicates that a H series tire should be used (no?).

Until someone can show me that the manufacturer made specific recommendations on a brand and model of tire for the any early Porsche, I'd consider a tire that meets to the letter the tire size designation to be correct, and even more so if it is "period" correct (available the year that the Porsche was manufactured).

I'm curious to know whether your 912's manual offers the option of both an SR and HR tire in the same size. From what I've seen on other models, the SR is reserved for the narrower 155 tires and the HR for 165's. Step up once more and the 911''s of the period options included 185/70HR's.

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Porsche Rescue
post Aug 11 2007, 06:41 PM
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My manual, in the technical data section, specifies 165 HR 15 with 5.5Jx15 wheels only. The tire pictured in the "changing a tire" section is clearly a Dunlop "dogbone" but I'm pretty sure other brands were fitted.

The tag in the engine compartment is another matter. It makes no mention of speed rating, even for the 911S.
912/911T&E Standard 165R15, Optional 185R15 or 185R14
911T&E "Comfort" Standard 185R14, Optional 185R15 or 165R15
911S Standard 185R15, Optional 165R15
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orthobiz
post Aug 13 2007, 04:49 PM
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Pat! I'm surprised at you. All those nailed threads and all this recent talk about tires and no thread! Anyway, here's my submission:

Original Spare from my 1974 1.8 Steelie

(IMG:http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1144/1107008631_6ae8c59453.jpg)
(IMG:http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1164/1107859424_5d4a5eb16e.jpg)

The all-important BACK of the wheel
(IMG:http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1310/1107004569_2e3d1c95e0.jpg)

(IMG:http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1424/1106999139_ac191d3c78.jpg)
(IMG:http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1149/1106994761_318288e4be.jpg)

And the tread:
(IMG:http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1271/1107830856_eb79ca960e.jpg)

And my previous owner's Jan 2006 tire purchase:
(IMG:http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1115/1107018093_9194eeccc2.jpg)

OK, Pat, just kidding, remember you're only the moderator...

Paul
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Pat Garvey
post Aug 13 2007, 05:16 PM
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tsk, tsk, tsk!

A man in your position with a stutter!

You had to be there for this folks.

So, what's the consensus - should we nail all tire posts?
Pat
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orthobiz
post Aug 13 2007, 05:26 PM
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Thanks, Pat, for the posting help.

So, is my spare a Michelin Zx? Seems like there are cars like mine with unused spares. The rubber looks good, could almost put together a set of originals if you could only locate four more!

In keeping with the theme of this forum, perhaps other member's "original size" solutions are best kept here, other tire posts out in the Garage.

Paul
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