Bringing out the dead Options

[type11969]

Jeff-

Seriously nice work, thanks for the info too. Definitely way nicer than my repairs, feel free to comment on anything I have done. I certainly don't think I will be finding any faults with your work!

-Chris

[Jeff Hail]

Don't you love it when you are making a new post and the site goes down. Damn right in the middle....

Fabricated a sleeve out of 18 guage steel for the inner long.

Fit sleeve to new long section and old front long.

Drill a bunch of holes for plug welds. Apply a light coat of weld thru primer.

Start tacking..... uh oh running out of C02/ Argon and daylight.
This is supposed to be sunny California! I only get 2 hours of daylight after my day job. This doesn't fly with me!

Oh well. Saturday I will burn some more metal......

A little progress anyways.

Still a perfect door gap!

[nola914]

Jeff:

Is there a source for the horizontal and vertical dimensions (over a level plane) for the various support points under the chassis?

I have a 73 with a good motor and trans, with hell hole problems that I would like to take a crack at repairing. But down here in New Orleans, there aren't any "good" 914's that I could borrow to try and get the correct measurements.

I was thinking about building a jig from 2x10's and 4x4's, bolted and cross braced to hold against warping, and using 1/2" or 5/8" bolts for anchors and resting points. I would use a laser to true everything up.

Second hand wood is more than plentiful around here because of all of the demolition going on, so it would cost me very little to build, maybe $25 bucks for the bolts and lags.

But I need to find out the dimensions for the mount points.

It won't be as pretty as yours, but I think it would do the trick.

[watsonrx13]

Jeff:

Is there a source for the horizontal and vertical dimensions (over a level plane) for the various support points under the chassis?

I have a 73 with a good motor and trans, with hell hole problems that I would like to take a crack at repairing. But down here in New Orleans, there aren't any "good" 914's that I could borrow to try and get the correct measurements.

I was thinking about building a jig from 2x10's and 4x4's, bolted and cross braced to hold against warping, and using 1/2" or 5/8" bolts for anchors and resting points. I would use a laser to true everything up.

Second hand wood is more than plentiful around here because of all of the demolition going on, so it would cost me very little to build, maybe $25 bucks for the bolts and lags.

But I need to find out the dimensions for the mount points.

It won't be as pretty as yours, but I think it would do the trick.

David, our very own site has this information. It's under '914 info', body dimensions...

Here's the link.

-- Rob

[Jeff Hail]

Jeff:

Is there a source for the horizontal and vertical dimensions (over a level plane) for the various support points under the chassis?

I have a 73 with a good motor and trans, with hell hole problems that I would like to take a crack at repairing. But down here in New Orleans, there aren't any "good" 914's that I could borrow to try and get the correct measurements.

I was thinking about building a jig from 2x10's and 4x4's, bolted and cross braced to hold against warping, and using 1/2" or 5/8" bolts for anchors and resting points. I would use a laser to true everything up.

Second hand wood is more than plentiful around here because of all of the demolition going on, so it would cost me very little to build, maybe $25 bucks for the bolts and lags.

But I need to find out the dimensions for the mount points.

It won't be as pretty as yours, but I think it would do the trick.

Underbody dimensions are very hard to find for the 914. I think you can still get them from Tru-Way on CD. Fortunatly the 914 has a symetrical body meaning center -side to side can be done by cross measuring. Datum measurements (from a flat plane) for height are easy if the body is stripped. By 1970's standards the 914 platform is considered stiff when the roof is bolted on. The dimensions found on this site are 90% upper body and I they will get you where you need to be. For the underbody it is really simple. A 914 is essentially just a sheetmetal box and it has a flat bottom.

You could make a platform from wood 4x4s but it will change dimension with heat and humidity. Probably not enough to loose sleep over.

If you have good jack pads that aren't damaged you can use the 4 locations under the tub to build your foundation. Unless you are cutting out major structural parts you should not get into trouble. If you are just repairing and replacing parts all you need is to support the body equally.

If you have an extra eighty grand you can get one of these (kidding)

[Jeff Hail]

Second time the site went down trying to post pictures. Lets try this again.

The "House of Steel" is open". Lets burn some metal!

Finished welding the sleeve to the inner long. I still finish metal that isnt seen on the outside. I know it's there and has to meet my standard of quality.

Welded all the plugs on the outside and butt welded the seam. Almost invisible. The way it should be. Grind everything smooth and coat of etching primer is all it needs.

Really windy in Santa Clarita today. Those Santa Ana's are mighty. Fist time in my life I had to turn the diffuser gas up to 40CFH!

A few tips for non experienced welders out there:
When welding inverted you want to strike a fast hot arc. Cut your wire with a pair of diagonals everytime you strike an arc. This will create a fast burn in and reduce pooling and puddle sag. Gravity is working against you when you weld upside-down. If you don't cut the wire everytime you have a small ball of oxidized metal on the tip of the wire. This has to burn off first and slows penetration. Cut the wire each time! It will make a good clean fast weld.

[degreeoff]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) I just have to say....'right on my man' wish I had that kind of patience...mine will last for 10 yrs if I am lucky but hey, then I'll do it agin!

[Jeff Hail]

Threw a second coat of primer on before it got dark. Came out clean.

[Jeff Hail]

A little more on welding thin sheetmetal:

Use weld thru primer. Do not be concerned about if you have sprayed on enough. Less is better. When you weld you are going to burn off the primer at the weld zone anyway. The zinc is only there to surround the weld zone once burned through and reduce oxidation.

I recomend scratching off any zinc primer at the weld zone area. You will get a faster hotter arc and will have less contamination resulting in a stronger flatter weld. When you are done take a Roloc disc and remove any left over weld thru primer in the area. The high zinc content has poor adhesion properties so you do want it left over as a primer for the surrounding area's.

Use a proper respirator. Zinc Oxide fumes are hazardous at least and can kill . There is no cure for heavy metal poisoning. Basically what zinc does is, it causes the bodies natural defenses to go into overdrive. Thus the same as other heavy metal poisoning. This has been called in the past "Monday Morning Fever", "Brass Fever", "The Brass Shakes", "Foundry Flu", etc. . .

Like a condom use protection. I cannot emphasize enough on safety.

[rjames]

Any advice on which brand of weld through primer to use?
Do the ones in the spray cans work well enough?


Great thread Jeff!

[Jeff Hail]

Any advice on which brand of weld through primer to use?
Do the ones in the spray cans work well enough?


Great thread Jeff!

I use Wurth products but I think any Zinc rich primer will be fine. Spray cans are sufficient as you do not need a lot. Just a press of the nozzle is enough. It's not a metal primer so don't be concerned about coating an entire part. Just a dusting around the weld area is all that is needed. Too much and it creates penetration issues. Any left over should be removed and a good metal primer should be applied after grinding.

If you are seeing a green flash or sputtering when striking an arc you are using too much zinc primer.

[rhodyguy]

this thread NEVER ceases to amaze!! wow. the astro scraper @$40 and change is a must have. please (if you're so inclined), submitt a write up for the classic forum. you're providing examples of first rate work, pictures, and text.

k

[majkos]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Your tips has saved me 20 years of trial and errors!

First rate indeed! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

[TJB/914]

Mr. Jeff Hail

Your metal work is magnificent (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) I like the way you explain things to us amateurs. It's so easy to understand.

Have you ever thought about writing a "Metal How To Book"?? It would be a great seller. This would be a great EXCELLENCE magazine how to article. Are you listening Pete??

Thanks for posting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Tom

[StratPlayer]

This is truely amazing stuff here. My hats off to you sir on some fine work, and a gallant man to take on a project like this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

[Gint]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Nice work. I wish I had the talent to do all of that work myself.

[Jeff Hail]

A valid PM was sent to me by Wes in reference to metal fatigue. On my previous post I may not have been clear but I will try to explain by example.

I referred to high stress/ high flex areas and double walls.

Where the inner long come's together with the rear frame rail it was double walled by the factory highlited in red.

If I were to just weld the inner long to the rear frame rail without the double wall it would be a very flexible joint and eventually fail. This would be compounded by suspension movement and engine weight and torque. This area is where the rear center section of the tub (torque box) ties into the rear structure of the vehicle. This area needs to be as strong or stronger than the factory designed it to be.
Everytime the suspension compresses this area is subjected to load. Everytime the vehicle is launched it is subject to load.

These parts are made of 18 guage sheetmetal which is not very thick. The area where the inner long ties into the rear frame rail is subject to high flex. The load of the rear section of the unibody is partially transfered to the long connection.
The long is a straight box and then kicks up into what is known as the Hell Hole. If rust of damage occurs at this area it will or has become fatigued with use. In a worse case scenario the car will sag. First because the supporting metal in this area has disappeared and second what metal left is supporting the weight of the car and suspension loads. It give's way. This is usually observed by a tight door gap in a very bad case of rust.

The example shown with the "paper template" would reflect the double wall at this connection. The purpose of the double wall is to spread the load at the joint into a larger area. This will reduce the load carried by the long/ rail connection at the seam/ weld area only. Because the rear rail is kicked up it acts as a lever pushing up each time the suspension compress's. The second wall controls the allowed flex in this area reducing fatigue that the long/ rail joint is subjected to.

An easy understanding would be a paper clip. A large paper clip is about 18 guage or so. If you straighten it out and then bend it back and forth it will break in two. Now take 10 paper clips and do the same thing all grouped in a bundle. It will be more difficult to bend 10 bundled and the bend area is now radiused into a larger area. If the paperclip is allowed to flex in a small area versus a larger area it will take less cycles to break. The same principle with sheetmetal applies except the long is comprised of a 3 sided box speading the load into a larger area into the wheelhouse and firewall connections.

Hope this helps

[Wes V]

A valid PM was sent to me by Wes in reference to metal fatigue. On my previous post I may not have been clear but I will try to explain by example.

Thanks for not taking the PM the wrong way!

But that still doesn't answer if it's possible to swing by!

Wes Vann

[Jeff Hail]

Another example of double walled panels.
The right wheelhouse assembly. This is an AA part. Notice where the double walls are? Extra layer added all thoughout the rail area which supports the the motor mounts and suspension console also.

Sorry George, pretty rough part if you ask me. If the guys used oil or wax in the dies those hidious wrinkles at the battery tray area would not be half as bad!

[Jeff Hail]

type11969 has a few questions regarding Roloc disc's

3M is not the only one who makes the threaded plastic hub abrasive discs that fits the standard Roloc arbors/adaptors. I use a few off brands as well. The ones I use more of are for clutch and brake disc conditioning. Same fine grits available as 3M for 1/5 the price. I find them in bags of 100 for about $20.00 One of my local suppliers retired so I now have to order them from an internet supplier ( Autobody Tool Mart) which is a great supplier of body needs. You can find them at www.autobodytoolmart.com or 1-800-382-1200

The Rolocs disc's and arbors are pictured below. The arbor adaptors are the same for small sanding disc's so everything is a quick change universal fit. These are the standard of the autobody industry. Very convenient and long lasting.

The part # for the (3M) arbor/ backing pad's are:
1 inch- 05538
2 inch- 05539
3 inch- 05540
These are 1/4 inch shanks. I included a picture of the die grinders they fit.

The disc's are available in both sanding discs and conditioning disc's.
Sanding discs are available in 24,36,50 grits and are round sand paper disc's.
(The Green Corp's- 3M)

Conditioning disc's come in fine , medium and course. These are the one's I prefer as they last long and do not thin metal. They smooth and clean the surface. They look like old dirty panty hose spun with resin. The fine grit doesn't leave sand scratches and requires almost no finish work.

The big nasty looking black disc's on the right are 3M Clean and Strip disc's. Two kinds are available. Roloc standard and the big ones as pictured. These take a different arbor which is 1/4 inch that fits any die or angle grinder. The same arbor for these big disc's would be used on cut-off wheels or weld grinding disc's. These are for aggressive coating removal.

If you are stripping large area's I would use Aircraft Stripper. Work smart not hard. If you are stripping thin gauge exterior body panels (fend's , door's qtr's, hood's etc) you do not want to apply heat with rotating abrasives. A lo speed DA is ok but still a lot of work. Heat warp's. Use stripper. If you are stripping longs, trunks and other area's that may have thicker metal and are not normally visible on the exterior then alternative abrasives such as Clean & Strip disc's are fast to get down to bare metal.