Exhaust stud install after installing TimeCert, WTF?!! Options

[rjames]

Trying to keep calm after spending the evening freezing my ass off in the garage and hoping I didn't F things up worse than they were before I started.

I stripped an exhaust stud a while back and jk.76-914 was super kind enough to lend me his TimeCert kit, which worked like a champ. (I'll be sending it back to you very soon, btw). I got the new TimeCert installed, and then went to install the 9 x 8 step stud that I ordered from Jake's site. I was able to get the new exaust stud installed just a little over 1/2 way before it wouldn't turn anymore and after exerting a bit more force, it instead began to turn the insert as well. An attempt at removing the stud just unthreaded the instert completely. Luckily I had another instert to install as I couldn't get the old one off of the stud. BTW, I had to destroy the stud to get it out by using vice grips to unscrew it- it was in there that tight. I REALLY hope I didn't strip the new threads I made for the instert as I probably turned the insert about 1/4-1/2 a turn before I realized it was turning along with the stud. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

I ordered an extra 9 x 8 stud, and upon further examination it looks like the 9mm end isn't perfectly 9mm. I don't have a micrometer, but just by eyeballing it I can tell that it widens after a few threads and stays wider before tapering off again near the end of the threads. It's subtle, but it's enough to keep it from screwing in to my newly installed TimeCert.

Has anyone else run into this problem? Am I doing something wrong? Are all exhaust studs not created equal? Pics below. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) In the second photo, you can kind of see the curve of the 9mm side when comparing it to the straight line I drew. The 8mm side does not seem to suffer from this problem.

Since I bought the step studs from Jake, and I'm sure he's installed a few of these, maybe he'll chime in and explain what I'm doing wrong here.

[sixnotfour]

Did you run the form tap down into the Timesert after you installed it ?

[rjames]

Did you run the form tap down into the Timesert after you installed it ?

I used the insert driver to install the insert, if that's what you mean. It seats the instert, gets harder to turn, and then breaks free after a few more turns. I followed the instructions to the letter. I believe it's the step stud that's wider in the middle which is keeping it from being able to fit into the instert all the way.

[sixnotfour]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Timeserts are too small from time to time...

We used and sold 2,000 of those studs last year, none were noted too large. Our only gripe was that some were threaded with left hand threads!

We are awaiting a new batch, if the stud is goofy we'll send you replacements as soon as we get them in..

[Tom]

Robert,
Before trying to put the next insert in, try to thread the new stud into it. If it is tight before inserting it , it will not get any looser after inserting it. Make sure all of the parts are good. If the stud is a little tight, try putting the proper size nut on that end to see if it is the stud or insert that is incorrectly sized. Try another 9mm bolt in the insert also.
Hope all works out well.
Tom

[rjames]

Robert,
Before trying to put the next insert in, try to thread the new stud into it. If it is tight before inserting it , it will not get any looser after inserting it. Make sure all of the parts are good. If the stud is a little tight, try putting the proper size nut on that end to see if it is the stud or insert that is incorrectly sized. Try another 9mm bolt in the insert also.
Hope all works out well.
Tom

Thanks for the quick replies everyone, I appreciate it. It's one of those evenings when I wonder if the car is worth the time and effort. Jake, how did you keep from getting discouraged when you first started out working with engines?!

I don't think I'd be able to thread a 9mm bolt into an insert before installing it, as I think that the driver tool that you use to seat the insert opens it up a tad more (which is in part how it seats the insert, I think).

Regardless, I already installed the 2nd (and last) instert I had because I was anxious to find out if I had stripped the new threads I'd tapped. My guess is that they are ok as the insert seemed to seat fine, but I probably 'pushed' the threads just a bit when I was trying to install the stud when it wouldn't go any further. Either way, the insert seated with the insert tool ok.

I did try threading a 9mm nut on the stud and had a very hard time getting it to go on (so much so that I had to hold the stud with a pair of vice grips while using a socket to thread the nut the rest of the way. But I couldn't be sure it was the stud as the nut was in bad shape to begin with.

I'll hit the hardware store tomorrow and grab a 9mm bolt and see if it threads into the installed insert ok. I'm assuming that it should go in without too much resistance, right? I'm really afraid of trying to screw anything into the insert and messing things up permanently. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Jake, how did you keep from getting discouraged when you first started out working with engines?!

I did get discouraged.. I have had the same tranny in and out of a car 5 times in one day trying to repair it... Back in the old days I had to patch everything up, half ass rigging it do I could get to school- but I never got left on the side of the road..

I have an odd disorder, one that keeps me focused enough to never give up and rarely get discouraged enough to walk away...(no matter what I am working with) I am blessed (even though my family doesn't think so, having to live with me)

Let me know if you need another stud...

[PeeGreen 914]

Jake, how did you keep from getting discouraged when you first started out working with engines?!

I did get discouraged.. I have had the same tranny in and out of a car 5 times in one day trying to repair it... Back in the old days I had to patch everything up, half ass rigging it do I could get to school- but I never got left on the side of the road..

I have an odd disorder, one that keeps me focused enough to never give up and rarely get discouraged enough to walk away...(no matter what I am working with) I am blessed (even though my family doesn't think so, having to live with me)

Let me know if you need another stud...

I wish more people had your disorder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Twystd1]

Robert,

Do you have the proper die's of the appropriate pitch you can run over the stud threads before installing?

In the pic you showed. The stud threads look wrong. They look cut wrong from one end to the other.
The stud doesn't look like rolled threads. They look cut. That might be why the threads don't fit the insert that well.

Might be the camera was at a bad angle... I dunno for sure.
Can't hurt to run a die over the threads. You can hold down the stud with a double nut in a vise. And do both ends. Use new nuts if possible. (not mine thank you)

A stretched nut will screw up the assembly as well.

Just a thought.

Clayton

[jk76.914]

Well, I'm glad to hear that the kit worked at least. I did the exact same job with the exact same kit, and didn't have any problem. The stud screwed in all the way with my fingers. My insert is almost certainly from the same lot as yours, since it came with the same kit..... So, my first guess is the same as your first guess- the stud. Try another, and be sure to try it on the insert before installing the insert.

Good luck!
Jim

[rjames]

I'll have to buy another stud because the two I bought were exactly the same, and the photo doesn't lie- I really think that the stud is bad, or at least bad for this application.

Jake, I'd love to take you up on your offer to replace the studs, but I do want to make sure that 1) a bolt will screw into the insert easily (will verify tonight or tomorrow) and 2) that the replacement studs aren't the same as I already have.
The local VW shop didn't have a step stud in stock so I'm at the mercy of mail order for testing.

Also I don't have a die set to attempt to correct the threads on the stud, and actually I think I'd rather just use a stud that fits correctly instead of trying to make one fit.

Well, I'm glad to hear that the kit worked at least. I did the exact same job with the exact same kit, and didn't have any problem. The stud screwed in all the way with my fingers. My insert is almost certainly from the same lot as yours, since it came with the same kit..... So, my first guess is the same as your first guess- the stud. Try another, and be sure to try it on the insert before installing the insert.

Jim, the kit worked perfectly, and was really very easy. I just hope I didn't mess things up by trying to instert a stud that was actually turning the insert as well. The last instert is already in, and like you I think the inserts are fine. Especialy since the insert driver had no problem installing it, and after it was seated the driver itself turned easily. I'll be hitting home depot for a 9mm bolt tonight to verify my assumptions about the studs and will report back.

[Cap'n Krusty]

Hello????? You're screwing (or attempting to screw) a 9mm stud into an 8mm hole Duuuuhhhhh!!!!. That's somewhat like trying to pour 2 gallons of gas into a one gallon can. Itain'tgonnahappen in this universe. The 8mm insert is so you can repair the hole and use the stock 8mm stud. Yes, the original studs are 8mm on both ends, the REPAIR stud is 9mm on one end, 8mm on the other. The Cap'n, staring in disbelief that this thread even got this far .................

BTW, I've never seen a 9mm nut, not that they may not exist.

[jk76.914]

I'll have to buy another stud because the two I bought were exactly the same, and the photo doesn't lie- I really think that the stud is bad, or at least bad for this application.

Jake, I'd love to take you up on your offer to replace the studs, but I do want to make sure that 1) a bolt will screw into the insert easily (will verify tonight or tomorrow) and 2) that the replacement studs aren't the same as I already have.
The local VW shop didn't have a step stud in stock so I'm at the mercy of mail order for testing.

Also I don't have a die set to attempt to correct the threads on the stud, and actually I think I'd rather just use a stud that fits correctly instead of trying to make one fit.

Well, I'm glad to hear that the kit worked at least. I did the exact same job with the exact same kit, and didn't have any problem. The stud screwed in all the way with my fingers. My insert is almost certainly from the same lot as yours, since it came with the same kit..... So, my first guess is the same as your first guess- the stud. Try another, and be sure to try it on the insert before installing the insert.

Jim, the kit worked perfectly, and was really very easy. I just hope I didn't mess things up by trying to instert a stud that was actually turning the insert as well. The last instert is already in, and like you I think the inserts are fine. Especialy since the insert driver had no problem installing it, and after it was seated the driver itself turned easily. I'll be hitting home depot for a 9mm bolt tonight to verify my assumptions about the studs and will report back.

Well, see what Jake comes up with first. I'll be stopping by Bel-Metric sometime in the next 2 weeks, so worse come to worst, I can pick one up from them and send it off to you. They've always delat with me when I show up in person. Good luck finding a 9mm x 1.0 bolt at Home Depot....

Jim

[jk76.914]

Hello????? You're screwing (or attempting to screw) a 9mm stud into an 8mm hole Duuuuhhhhh!!!!. That's somewhat like trying to pour 2 gallons of gas into a one gallon can. Itain'tgonnahappen in this universe. The 8mm insert is so you can repair the hole and use the stock 8mm stud. Yes, the original studs are 8mm on both ends, the REPAIR stud is 9mm on one end, 8mm on the other. The Cap'n, staring in disbelief that this thread even got this far .................

BTW, I've never seen a 9mm nut, not that they may not exist.

HELLO????? It's a 9mm TimeCert. That's 9mm ID, NOT OD. I know, because it's my kit and I lent it to Robert. BTW, I got it at Bel-Metric, here in Mass, and they have 9mm nuts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[jk76.914]

I'll have to buy another stud because the two I bought were exactly the same, and the photo doesn't lie- I really think that the stud is bad, or at least bad for this application.

Jake, I'd love to take you up on your offer to replace the studs, but I do want to make sure that 1) a bolt will screw into the insert easily (will verify tonight or tomorrow) and 2) that the replacement studs aren't the same as I already have.
The local VW shop didn't have a step stud in stock so I'm at the mercy of mail order for testing.

Also I don't have a die set to attempt to correct the threads on the stud, and actually I think I'd rather just use a stud that fits correctly instead of trying to make one fit.

Well, I'm glad to hear that the kit worked at least. I did the exact same job with the exact same kit, and didn't have any problem. The stud screwed in all the way with my fingers. My insert is almost certainly from the same lot as yours, since it came with the same kit..... So, my first guess is the same as your first guess- the stud. Try another, and be sure to try it on the insert before installing the insert.

Jim, the kit worked perfectly, and was really very easy. I just hope I didn't mess things up by trying to instert a stud that was actually turning the insert as well. The last instert is already in, and like you I think the inserts are fine. Especialy since the insert driver had no problem installing it, and after it was seated the driver itself turned easily. I'll be hitting home depot for a 9mm bolt tonight to verify my assumptions about the studs and will report back.

Well, see what Jake comes up with first. I'll be stopping by Bel-Metric sometime in the next 2 weeks, so worse come to worst, I can pick one up from them and send it off to you. They've always delat with me when I show up in person. Good luck finding a 9mm x 1.0 bolt at Home Depot....

Jim

Oops. That's 9mm x 1.25, not 9mm x 1.0!

[rjames]

Whoa, easy there Cap'n yer gonna pull something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Well, see what Jake comes up with first. I'll be stopping by Bel-Metric sometime in the next 2 weeks, so worse come to worst, I can pick one up from them and send it off to you. They've always delat with me when I show up in person. Good luck finding a 9mm x 1.0 bolt at Home Depot....

Thanks for the offer Jim, I'll keep you posted, and yeah, Home Depot probably won't be of any help.

[Cap'n Krusty]

Hello????? You're screwing (or attempting to screw) a 9mm stud into an 8mm hole Duuuuhhhhh!!!!. That's somewhat like trying to pour 2 gallons of gas into a one gallon can. Itain'tgonnahappen in this universe. The 8mm insert is so you can repair the hole and use the stock 8mm stud. Yes, the original studs are 8mm on both ends, the REPAIR stud is 9mm on one end, 8mm on the other. The Cap'n, staring in disbelief that this thread even got this far .................

BTW, I've never seen a 9mm nut, not that they may not exist.

HELLO????? It's a 9mm TimeCert. That's 9mm ID, NOT OD. I know, because it's my kit and I lent it to Robert. BTW, I got it at Bel-Metric, here in Mass, and they have 9mm nuts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Well, I checked the time Sert Catalog, and there it is, big as life.

MY APOLOGIES!!!! Right here, right now.

Still sounds like the wrong stud being screwed into the hole. The wrong thread, perhaps? I'm at a bit of a loss as to the sense of using an oversize insert and stud when you coulda gone with the standard size. The Cap'n, trying hard to be tactfully humble.

[jk76.914]

Well, I checked the time Sert Catalog, and there it is, big as life.

MY APOLOGIES!!!! Right here, right now.

Still sounds like the wrong stud being screwed into the hole. The wrong thread, perhaps? I'm at a bit of a loss as to the sense of using an oversize insert and stud when you coulda gone with the standard size. The Cap'n, trying hard to be tactfully humble.

Well I used 9mm because I originally had a pulled 8mm stud, which I tapped out to oversize (9mm). It pulled again. Looking at the numbers, when the original 8mm stud pulled, it broached out a rough bore 8mm hole, and 8mm is larger than the minor dimension on the 9mm thread, which means the new 9mm threads didn't have full depth. So when Rich posted for advice back when, I put my 2 cents in and recommended either tap to oversize 10mm, or 9mm time cert (which taps to slightly larger than 10mm) and get full bite on the replacement. The 8mm time cert taps to slightly larger than 9mm in the head, which I think leaves him open to pulling it again like I did with my original approach. Also, time certs aren't cheap, but I had my 9mm kit and extra inserts which I offered to lend him. That's the story....

[rjames]

I just picked up another step stud from a local type IV engine rebuilder. Just judging it by eye (and without the other on hand to compare it to) it doesn't appear to be thicker in the middle of the threads like the exhaust stud I was trying to use. I'll know for sure when I get home and will post the results. I'm anxious to close this thread with positive results and my new (to me) exhaust system installed.