Engine tin screws, Yes, I could have posted this on a nailed thread....... Options

[Pat Garvey]

I didn't post this in the "nailed" thread on engines, beacuse no one seems to go to those threads anymore (should I "un-nail those?").

On another thread, in another forum, McMark stated that ALL sheet metal screws used were slotted (not trying to make trouble here), but I believe that to be incorrect.

The upper engine tin screws on my 72, which are original to the car, are NOT slotted. Further, they are "cad" plated, and Phillips type screws.

Anyone else with an early car want to step in here to make a statement?
Pat

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

Would we be talking about fasteners that look like those depicted in the attachment below?

[type4org]

I didn't post this in the "nailed" thread on engines, beacuse no one seems to go to those threads anymore (should I "un-nail those?").

I find very long threads, like the nailed ones tend to become, very unwieldy. They take very long to load, especially when they contain many pictures. Even clicking on the small icon to jump to the latest reply doesn't help much since everything on that page still needs to load.

Not sure what can be done about it. IMHO for "reference" topics such as the nailed ones we have now it would be perfectly OK for the moderator to go in and reduce the postings to a representative set and remove duplication or inappropriate posts, if this is possible. That would greatly increase the usefulness of those reference threads.

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

Not sure what can be done about it. IMHO for "reference" topics such as the nailed ones we have now it would be perfectly OK for the moderator to go in and reduce the postings to a representative set and remove duplication or inappropriate posts, if this is possible. That would greatly increase the usefulness of those reference threads.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I think the "nailed" threads should be a reference source only, added to and then "sanctified" by Brother Pat as appropriate for the topic heading.

Paul

[slackin' at work]

My early 72 has phillips heads securing the inner case-side of the sheet metal.
all others seem to be the typical cheesheads.

[TJB/914]

I checked the Porsche parts book & they call out cheese heads like this.

T

[Pat Garvey]

My early 72 has phillips heads securing the inner case-side of the sheet metal.
all others seem to be the typical cheesheads.

THIS is what I'm talking about! Though, mine go beyond the inner case-side. These are "panhead" screws & show in PET. Admittedly, after researching my records (I have the part sticker for every factory replacement part I've ever used) I did find that I had replaced all these screws in '79. Partnos N 010 705 2, N 014 139 5, M 010 704 2 and N 014 142 3 were all ordered from Porsche (an example of my "tome" is attached. These were the replacement screws available at the time.

I do have a full collection of "cheeseheads" for use on the underside & other areas of the tin, but the "panheads" were up top.

Here's a pic of one of the screws ordered in '79.

[Pat Garvey]

And, here's what they look like - sorta. Always have problems taking close up pics inside the engine bay.
Pat

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

Redone/refreshed/restored tin w/'70 spec fasteners.......

[Cap'n Krusty]

I worked at a dealership in 1973 and 1974, where I was the low man on the totem pole. That meant I was the 914/912/356 guy. I never saw a Phillips head screw anywhere on the engine tin. There's ONE cap screw, the one on the forward facing surface of the interface of the left and right front engine tin. The first use of Phillips head engine tin screws I recall was on 1977 and newer VW busses. It was a welcome sight to a guy who believes in putting all the hardware back on an engine. The Cap'n

[Pat Garvey]

To say I'm perplexed would be an understatement. To say I'm a questioning the responses would also fit. To say that no one in the entire world knows every bit & piece of this particular car like I do would also be correct. I'd roughly estimate that I have more than 2500 hours in the engine bay & underside (probably way more) over the years. I know this 914 & I am the original owner.

When I replaced these fasteners, they were ordered from the microfische at my local dealer. They are an exact match to those that were replaced. Yes, I've kept every replaced fastener for everything, unless it was stripped (got that from my grandfather - tight German). I have the original panhead fasteners that were replaced - they are "phillips" type, though many others (most) are cheeseheads.

So, how can it be that my 72 is the ONLY 914 out there that EVER used these fasteners? They match with PET also. And - I am the only person to touch the motor since it went out of warranty, other than removing the heads & having a friend put new valve guides in them.

I have a stash of new cheeseheads that I COULD just screw in (I always buy three times what I need!), that came with the same order for panheads. Yeah, I could do that, but it wouldn't be original to my 914 - and that bothers me too.

So, if I go to the Charlotte Parade, in the restoration class - someone is likely to either gig me for incorrect fasteners or question me about them (and this whole thing will come up again).

Do I stay with my conviction, or give in to consensus (though I feel the consensus is wrong)?

Don't get me wrong - I do appreciate your responses. Just don't agree.
Pat

[TJB/914]

I worked at a dealership in 1973 and 1974, where I was the low man on the totem pole. That meant I was the 914/912/356 guy. I never saw a Phillips head screw anywhere on the engine tin. There's ONE cap screw, the one on the forward facing surface of the interface of the left and right front engine tin. The first use of Phillips head engine tin screws I recall was on 1977 and newer VW busses. It was a welcome sight to a guy who believes in putting all the hardware back on an engine. The Cap'n

Hi Pat,
I agree with Cptn. Krusty and feel your pain. My take on this, the parts guy was lazy when you ordered parts & he reached into the VW bin to fill your order. That's what under paid shop rats do & don't give a dam as long as it fits the hole.
I know you are right about ordering the parts from Porsche & we believe you. It's also a huge burden to convenience the judges if they notice Phillips head screws when judging your car so change them out to slotted screws. It's called going with the flow & having fun at Parade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

I am sure 99.99% of the 914's came from the factory with slotted head cheese screws so why not put them in your car.

Oh yea another suggestion, add a little bling with a rear fog lamp & be sure to drill only (3) small holes in the sheet metal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Did you hear that Eric. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

Tom

[McMark]

I wouldn't be too surprised to jump in my time machine and find that someone at the dealership before you bought the car or before the car went out of warranty replaced the screw incorrectly. I don't doubt your car or your history with the car, but I also trust the Cap'n as well as my own experience. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Good luck with your search. I hope it comes to some valuable fruition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

The photos that are posted on the"nailed" engine bay Forum, as far as I can tell, all show slotted, cheese head fasteners. Maybe those phillips head screws are the residuals of your employment when you worked at the HILMAN FASTENER CO. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

Paul

[slackin' at work]

My early 72 has phillips heads securing the inner case-side of the sheet metal.
all others seem to be the typical cheesheads.

Pat, I really tried. I went out and looked all over and under the sheet
metal to try to find more pan-heads.

alas, only cheeseheads.

remember, I DO have the phillips panheads but only on the 4 bolts
holding the inner cylinder tin to the case. I am not the original owner
and can not verify these are the correct bolts.

on the flipside, I can not verify that the correct panheads were not
replaced with cheeseheads over the years.

Persoanlly, I say keep the fasteners your car had on it. if it had panheads...
keep the panheads. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

[Pat Garvey]

Did a couple of hours research today. What follows are the results of that research...but first....

When I was in the Army & stationed in the middle of nowhere Kansas (Ft. Riley, 1969), I was thankful to be on US soil. But there was literally nothing to do. So a firend of mine decided to teach me how to hunt. "Gomer" was a former subsistence hunter from Oklahoma. He hunted, killed & ate everything - and I mean everything. That year I had badger for Thanksgiving. But, before that he decided to teach me to hunt crow. Gomer was excellent at calling scouts, while I just layed under wet leaves waiting for the flock. We shot 4 BIG crow that day, took them to the farm owner who allowed us to hunt on his land & he insisted we stay for dinner. I learned to eat crow that day (sure beat badger). Apparently, I developed a taste for crow, as the following will prove.

In my research between PET & my original paper parts manual I discovered that the terms "panhead" and "cheesehead" are interchangeable & have nothing to do with slotted or phillips type fasteners. It appears that the only phillips type fasteners are those holding the inner case-side of the sheetmetal. There may be others, but I could not find any other for the sheetmetal. When drilling down closely on the PET fasteners, it was apparent that they were/are slotted.

So....this leads me to accept that I have been in error, and taste that lovely black bird again!

Also, it seems that the prts bozo I ordered the fasteners from packaged them incorrectly in 1979. Too bad, because they really do look better than the proper parts. Other than the 4 inner case screws I'll change to slotted.

I did notice that the cache of used fasteners I have was comprised mostly of slotted, though at least 40 are phillips (of 2 different sizes). So, I thought "where did these come from?" Records digging time again. Remember, this was almost 30 years ago - good thing I keep records (at least for my own sanity).

Forgot that I bought two blown 2 liter motors to play with in 1980. I think one was from Jon Lowe. Took them apart to see how they worked inside - one had a bad cam, the other a broken crank. Saved all the bits & pieces that I thought I could use down the road & pawned off the rest at a Tweeks swap meet. I guess that's where the extra fasteners came from.

Still have a hard time believeing that I'd put the wrong fasteners back on my freshly re-done sheetmetal, but have to accept the fact that I did.

Mmmm, crow gud! Can't quite remember the taste, but I surely remember that badger (whew!). Worst Thanksgiving I've ever experienced.

As an aside, the phillips head screws seem to be all of two sizes: 6 x 16, and 6 x 21. These sizes could be off a little due to conversion. Any idea of they're use? Need pics?

Pat

ps: Once again, thanks to all the people who finally got a hardheaded Irishman to do some thinking & research.

[TJB/914]

Hi Pat,

You are a big man to eat crow.

We all learned a good lesson and now it's official "slotted cheese head screws". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

Tom

[GWN7]

Pat...put Torx back in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[davep]

Did a couple of hours research today. In my research between PET & my original paper parts manual I discovered that the terms "panhead" and "cheesehead" are interchangeable & have nothing to do with slotted or phillips type fasteners.

Pan head and cheese head are NOT the same thing:
http://www.spaenaur.com/view_pdf.asp?Page=R11
Cheese head is DIN 84 and Pan head is DIN 85.
There is also a button head that is similar to pan head but is more domed and does not have flat sides.

For fasteners you need to specify:
drive type: slot, Phillips, etc
head type: cheese, pan, etc
thread type: machine, sheet metal, thread forming, etc
http://www.spaenaur.com/view_pdf.asp?Page=R12
thread diameter & pitch
thread length, and if fully threaded or partially threaded
material and finish
strength grade

I would not be eating crow just yet. BTW I understand that beaver is worse than badger. So bad in fact that the beaver is usually boiled, the broth is used but the meat is thrown out.

[GWN7]

OT..sorry to disagree Dave, but any beaver I've had was very tasty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

http://www.cajuncookingrecipes.com/wildgam...ver_recipes.htm