 Dave Hunt's 2270 on SDS.. First pull on the dyno, Dave is back at Aircooled Heaven! |
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| ConeDodger |
 Jan 17 2008, 05:07 PM
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#21
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Apex killer!  Group: Members Posts: 23,611 Joined: 31-December 04 From: Tahoe Area Member No.: 3,380 Region Association: Northern California 
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So with the autocross fan you are still only around "stock engine" temperatures. Would you call that streetable? Or would stop light idle be a problem?
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| Jake Raby |
Jan 17 2008, 05:12 PM
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#22
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
Streetable unless you have a stock fifth gear.. drive around in 4th and you'll be just fine...
I'll send you one, you can try it.. |
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| jaminM3 |
Jan 17 2008, 05:46 PM
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 418 Joined: 23-March 07 From: SLC, UT Member No.: 7,619 Region Association: Intermountain Region |
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jan 17 2008, 12:43 PM)  The point is Dave's engine made more power than any 2270 we had ever dynoed on pump gas and we have figured out why... More on that later. So was the difference the cam? I am seriously considering this combo, but I already have a set of Len't heads... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) |
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| HAM Inc |
Jan 17 2008, 06:22 PM
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#24
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 846 Joined: 24-July 06 From: Watkinsville,GA Member No.: 6,499 Region Association: None |
Ben your heads are nice stock reman heads, but they won't support that kind of HP. Sell the heads and order a pair of LE-200's. You will get the same heads Dave has.
I went back and looked at the notes for Daves heads (I do this whenever big #'s jump out of a combo) and Daves heads were one of the first pairs of Gen2 LE-200's. The Gen3's (where we are now) are virtually the same with the only difference being that they are CNC port matched to our custom phenolic intake gaskets. Prior to that I hand matched. Aside from the fact that they are LE-200's, there is nothing overly special about the heads, meaning I didn't experiment with a different seat profile or tool path (I ONLY do that on engines Jake is building and testing anyway) the kits are always tried and true technologies. I believe that aside from highlighting Jakes ability to spec out a great combo, these fabulous results also show just what a bad ass tuner he is. I saw this first hand at Road Atlanta last year with our F-Prod 914, and earlier at Lanier during a test seesion. He has a sixth sense for it! |
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| Jake Raby |
Jan 17 2008, 07:32 PM
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#25
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
Thanks Len...
My edge with tuning is the fact that I design the combo, oversee it's assembly and then do all the tuning... It's like a Chef that tastes all the food he cooks and alters the recipe as he goes. I was REALLY on my game today, I only missed one forecast during the entire tuning session. This engine has made more power than any 2563 we have built to date, thats right 300ccs more displacement with the same heads isn't better than the 2270! Thats the reason why this is the combo I love so well... Bigger isn't better- one day people will liusten when I tell them that the 2270 is the most efficient combo that can be built for the TIV. It is. |
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| Gint |
Jan 17 2008, 07:59 PM
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#26
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Mike Ginter Group: Admin Posts: 16,083 Joined: 26-December 02 From: Denver CO. Member No.: 20 Region Association: Rocky Mountains  |
Wow. I'm impressed. If all of my available cash wasn't earmarked for the final bits for my /6 resto I'd be ordering a kit for the 4 banger.
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| DNHunt |
Jan 17 2008, 08:23 PM
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#27
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914 Wizard? No way. I got too much to learn. Group: Members Posts: 4,099 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Gig Harbor, WA Member No.: 598 |
Well, this is way beyond what I expected. There are several things to clear up. First, these guys know their stuff. They have a really good idea what they are going to get with a combo so, it was a real surprise to exceed their expectations. Nice though. Second, the engines that come out of there are beautiful. I've seen quite a few in production in my 2 trips and they are works of art. Mine looks like a pig next to them but you know about beauty. Third these guys have the patience of Job, to stick with my project and then to put up with my asking for help finding stuff and checking stuff. Beyond that, it's a fun place. People are very friendly and they enjoy what they do. They like a good joke too.
Tuning went like this. Install. Look for previous record of engines that are similar. Change a few of the fuel values. Start it. Change a few of the MAP values. Enter timing values that Jake dictated from memory. Do a series of pulls, Change about 1/4 of the fuel values by calculating the difference in AFR's. Change 1 more AFR value. At that point Jake said "We're about done". We made changes to the timing but, both times it was worse as Jake said it would be. Then we played with the fan. Session over. It was short sweet and easy. So different than my experience with Megasquirt. Simple Digital Systems is the right name. Course it helps to have a great tuner and good equipment. Here's a few pics. My first challenge was mounting the SDS Hall sensors. I chose my favorite spot behind the fan but, Blake suggested the side nearest the alternator. and the he came up with a precut bracket that I modified.   |
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| DNHunt |
Jan 17 2008, 08:28 PM
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#28
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914 Wizard? No way. I got too much to learn. Group: Members Posts: 4,099 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Gig Harbor, WA Member No.: 598 |
I added the magnets to an old AC pulley (I think). Anyway it was perfect for the job.
 I did most of the install on the dyno  |
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| Jake Raby |
Jan 17 2008, 08:32 PM
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#29
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
One good thing that came from this session was a BOLT ON easy way to do the hall effect sensor for the SDS.. To date we have never done it the same way twice, but the pic Dave illustrates here will be our standard method from now on.. It all bolts on easily.
Dave is one hell of a nice guy... I even took him for a ride in a golf cart and in the Pinzgauer that he won't forget.. Driving around in 4" of snow after midnight in pouring sleet and freezing rain.. All in all we jumped the golf cart off an embankment and then ran the Pinzgauer into a tree at WOT sliding off the side of the mountain sideways... Tell them Dave.... LOL |
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| DNHunt |
Jan 17 2008, 08:36 PM
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#30
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914 Wizard? No way. I got too much to learn. Group: Members Posts: 4,099 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Gig Harbor, WA Member No.: 598 |
Ready to go.
 Jake filmed some of it so if it doesn't end up on the cutting room floor my engine will be in the movies  |
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| DNHunt |
Jan 17 2008, 08:44 PM
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#31
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914 Wizard? No way. I got too much to learn. Group: Members Posts: 4,099 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Gig Harbor, WA Member No.: 598 |
All done and time to take it off the dyno.
 By the way, the Pinzgauer ride was at about 12 midnight and the golf cart ride was at about 2 AM. Damn lot of fun, we were both howling. He was drifting a golf cart and making his own road with the Pinz. Then we watched "The Fastest Indian" untill about 4 AM. Jake is kind of like Burt Munro portrayed in the movie. He sticks to it. Anyway, I'm beat now and need some sleep. I have a day to pack up and crate. Thanks Jake |
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| grantsfo |
Jan 17 2008, 08:44 PM
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#32
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Arrrrhhhh! Group: Members Posts: 4,327 Joined: 16-March 03 Member No.: 433 Region Association: None |
Great work guys. Curious if you have done chassis dynos on any 2270 motors yet? Just curious how things change in the car.
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| DNHunt |
Jan 17 2008, 08:51 PM
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#33
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914 Wizard? No way. I got too much to learn. Group: Members Posts: 4,099 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Gig Harbor, WA Member No.: 598 |
QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jan 17 2008, 06:44 PM) Great work guys. Curious if you have done chassis dynos on any 2270 motors yet? Just curious how things change in the car. It's gonna change. I didn't have the alternator hooked up of course and then the running gear. When I had a chassis dyno done on an old 2056 the guy said it would eat 15 hp. I thought that was conservative but' who knows. |
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| Jake Raby |
Jan 17 2008, 08:51 PM
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#34
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(grantsfo @ Jan 17 2008, 07:44 PM) Great work guys. Curious if you have done chassis dynos on any 2270 motors yet? Just curious how things change in the car. Yes.. Many times.. In a 914 I have had 180 FWHP engines drop to 148 RWHP. The 2270 I did for Hot VWs made 170 FWHP and when I put it into my test car for the cross country trip it made 148 RWHP with the exact same tuning. Chassis dyno numbers are so variable, tire pressure, gear oil, tranny temp, brake adjustment/ dragging calipers and etc create variables that aren't "The engine".. Thats why we don't have a chassis dyno. The Spyder we did for the Blow it up show made 244 FWHP and 211 RWHP.... The 901 tranny is the most power sucking box I have experienced yet, the Type 1 tranny loses 1/2 as much power at the rear wheels as the 901.. |
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| Jake Raby |
Jan 17 2008, 08:53 PM
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#35
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
The alternator is good for 6HP, we have seen as little as 3 HP back to back. I have never seen more than 6 from a stoc alternator.
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| r_towle |
Jan 17 2008, 09:09 PM
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#36
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,588 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States
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Jake,
In the first post you said the motor had a "ull" fan. What is that? And, just confirm this...190 + HP with stock tin and stock fan? What are the CHT's from that setup? Just want to know what YOU think the high limit is of the CHT before you fix something. Rich |
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| SirAndy |
Jan 17 2008, 09:12 PM
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#37
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Resident German Group: Admin Posts: 41,675 Joined: 21-January 03 From: Oakland, Kalifornia Member No.: 179 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(r_towle @ Jan 17 2008, 07:09 PM) In the first post you said the motor had a "ull" fan. What is that? that is a "typo" my friend ... it's supposed to read "full fan" as in "no blades removed" ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif) Andy |
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| DNHunt |
Jan 17 2008, 09:15 PM
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#38
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914 Wizard? No way. I got too much to learn. Group: Members Posts: 4,099 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Gig Harbor, WA Member No.: 598 |
I think I'll go to sleep and count horses. I should be asleep before I get to 199.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) |
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| Jake Raby |
Jan 17 2008, 09:22 PM
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#39
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(r_towle @ Jan 17 2008, 08:09 PM) Jake, In the first post you said the motor had a "ull" fan. What is that? And, just confirm this...190 + HP with stock tin and stock fan? What are the CHT's from that setup? Just want to know what YOU think the high limit is of the CHT before you fix something. Rich Yes, 194 to be exact... Stock fan in place, all stock tin and COOLER than stock temps. I don't worry about head temps till they get to 370 sustained or 400 peak.. This engine never hit 350, not even once. A thoroughbred combo that is efficient doesn't generate heat. |
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| Air_Cooled_Nut |
Jan 17 2008, 10:26 PM
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#40
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914 Ronin - 914 owner who lost his 914club.com Group: Members Posts: 1,748 Joined: 19-April 03 From: Beaverton, Oregon Member No.: 584 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jan 17 2008, 06:51 PM) In a 914 I have had 180 FWHP engines drop to 148 RWHP... What is "FWHP" and what is "RWHP"? Or specifically, what do the first two letters represent? |
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