Which swaybar...?, 914 vs. 911 front suspension. Options

[SirAndy]

Do you have any pics of that? I have never heard of anyone using a sway bar that went under the car. Where does it go?

i ran the underbody 911 sway bar on my car for a while (came with the '84 carrera frontend) ...

it works just fine for a street car, at least as good as a stock 914 sway bar, if not better ...

it mounts to the a-arms in the same spot as the stock sway bar and runs under the body and is attached to the rear crossmember mounting tabs ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif) Andy

[smdubovsky]

With regard to the under car sway bar; Are different rate bars available, and do they make adjustable one's?

No and no. (well, technically you can find an earlier SC bar but the sizes are not that much different)

Have to go though body to get adjustability.

[PeeGreen 914]

Do you have any pics of that? I have never heard of anyone using a sway bar that went under the car. Where does it go?

i ran the underbody 911 sway bar on my car for a while (came with the '84 carrera frontend) ...

it works just fine for a street car, at least as good as a stock 914 sway bar, if not better ...

it mounts to the a-arms in the same spot as the stock sway bar and runs under the body and is attached to the rear crossmember mounting tabs ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif) Andy

So the 911 bar isn't as good for 914s when setting up for AX and such? I would never go with this as I wouldn't need to, but it is good to know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[SirAndy]

So the 911 bar isn't as good for 914s when setting up for AX and such? I would never go with this as I wouldn't need to, but it is good to know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

the underbody bar is not adjustable. just like the stock 914 bar. no difference there. however, the 911 bar is bigger in dia. ...

so like i said, for a street car, i don't see any problem running the 911 underbody bar. i did for quite a while. even did some AX with it.
it works great.


now, if you need a adjustable bar, you'll have to go aftermarket. in which case it will have to be through-body anyways ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif) Andy

[PeeGreen 914]

Cool. That's good to know. Haven't come across anyone wanting to do that, but now if I ever do I know it can be done. Thanks Andy.

[andys]

With regard to the under car sway bar; Are different rate bars available, and do they make adjustable one's?

No and no. (well, technically you can find an earlier SC bar but the sizes are not that much different)

Have to go though body to get adjustability.

Steven,

You mean with all the bazillions of late 911's out there, that you can't get different sizes of undercar sway bars? I would think with lots of AX, track, and HPDE 911's there's sure to be some choices, no?

I intend to track test to develop my suspension, so I'd prefer to have some ability to make changes.

Thanks,

Andys

[orange914]

You want to buy a 914 sway bar. It is about where they go through, and the 914 bar is designed to go through the car in the appropriate place.

here is a link showing you how we installed our factory bar in our 73 that never had one, maybe this will help.

http://www.914world.com/specs/swaybar_install.php

mike

[PeeGreen 914]

Thanks Mike. I am well aware of how those go in. I was curious as to how the 911 bar goes on as I have never seen that.

[PeeGreen 914]

With regard to the under car sway bar; Are different rate bars available, and do they make adjustable one's?

No and no. (well, technically you can find an earlier SC bar but the sizes are not that much different)

Have to go though body to get adjustability.

Steven,

You mean with all the bazillions of late 911's out there, that you can't get different sizes of undercar sway bars? I would think with lots of AX, track, and HPDE 911's there's sure to be some choices, no?

I intend to track test to develop my suspension, so I'd prefer to have some ability to make changes.

Thanks,

Andys

I think that may be because they also have strut braces for ther 911.

[drgchapman]

Not quite.
Strut braces will not affect the anti-sway properties. They are designed to reduce flex in the upper strut mount so as to maintain camber, caster and toe settings under loads that will deform the frame to some degree.

Like Andy said, to get an adjustable front sway bar, you need to go through the chassis. The designers then use an adjustable cantelever to the drop links to alter the moment on the sway bar, creating adjustability. The factory Porsche front sway bar is under the car and not adjustable, there is no room for adjustability.

As I said, I'll forward some pics tonight after work. I need to put the car up on the lift and take the picture for you.

[Chuck]

Not quite.
Strut braces will not affect the anti-sway properties. They are designed to reduce flex in the upper strut mount so as to maintain camber, caster and toe settings under loads that will deform the frame to some degree.

Like Andy said, to get an adjustable front sway bar, you need to go through the chassis. The designers then use an adjustable cantelever to the drop links to alter the moment on the sway bar, creating adjustability. The factory Porsche front sway bar is under the car and not adjustable, there is no room for adjustability.

As I said, I'll forward some pics tonight after work. I need to put the car up on the lift and take the picture for you.

I would be interested in seeing the pics as well.

[drgchapman]

Here are the pics I promised. Drove it home from work, a little wet here in Portland as you can see.

The first ones are of the 911 Carrera front sway bar under the orange car:

[drgchapman]

Here is one side of the front sway bar set up on the red car.

[PeeGreen 914]

Thanks for doing that Gary. I now get how the 911 bar fits. Must say I do like how the 914 bar goes through the body much better. However, I guess the 911 bar would work inn a pinch.

So in the other post you were saying how the strut brace deosn't really help with sway. So how do the 911 guys adjust everything? Do they just buy a bunch of different bars?

[smdubovsky]

You mean with all the bazillions of late 911's out there, that you can't get different sizes of undercar sway bars? I would think with lots of AX, track, and HPDE 911's there's sure to be some choices, no?

The answer is still no;) All of the serious autox, track, HPDE guys convert over to the early type through-body bars (my 911 included). To my knowledge there isn't a single aftermarket under body front bar avail. W/o droplinks the adjustability part is too difficult. The long drop link of a though-bar doesn't change the angle much when you slide it back and forth.

[Wanna9146]

Thanks all. It looks like swapping in a complete 911 front end is the way to go. I really don't want to get into all that cutting, welding, etc. Car is only for the street.

[914Mike]

EDIT: Upon further review.... One caveat could be the year of your car. If you have an early car (70,71,possibly 72), I don't think you can just bolt the front struts in. Or, at the very least you need early 911 struts. Because IIRC they were link pin and not ball joint until 72.5.

Still needs review...

1. All years have ball joints. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Link-pins?? Like pre '66 Beetles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
2. Early struts have pinch-bolts to hold the ball joint to the struts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)
3. Later struts have a special tapered pin to hold the ball joint on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

Anyone have the years when this changed for 911? IIRC, 914 changed in '72?? The front rotor also got the addition of a centering ring, so early wheels no longer fit in some cases like Pedrini's.

[jasons]

EDIT: Upon further review.... One caveat could be the year of your car. If you have an early car (70,71,possibly 72), I don't think you can just bolt the front struts in. Or, at the very least you need early 911 struts. Because IIRC they were link pin and not ball joint until 72.5.

Still needs review...

1. All years have ball joints. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Link-pins?? Like pre '66 Beetles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
2. Early struts have pinch-bolts to hold the ball joint to the struts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)
3. Later struts have a special tapered pin to hold the ball joint on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

Anyone have the years when this changed for 911? IIRC, 914 changed in '72?? The front rotor also got the addition of a centering ring, so early wheels no longer fit in some cases like Pedrini's.

Thanks for the clarification. I knew there was a change but, I was confused with early beetles(owned a few of those too). I believe 72.5 was the change for 914.

ALSO, one other thing I don't think was mentioned about using the 911 front end hub to hub, you add the 911 19mm torsion bars.

[Eric_Shea]

This thread's all over the place! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Too much has been made about pinch bolt struts. If you can find the later ones go for it. If not, check to make sure the hole is fine on the bottom (it probably is) and enjoy. Is this guy going 5-lug?

There's been a lot said about sway bars here... my personal preference is "through body" The under body bars are 18 (early 74-76) and 20mm (later). While the 18mm bar should be fine for the average street ride, I personally think 20 is pushing it. The stock 914 bar is 15mm and does a world of good if you are used to driving without it.

911 through body bars came in 12-13-15-16 and 18mm sizes. There are some more as well but, these are what you would commonly find on their street driven, through body, varients. 16mm was the most common through body bar.

One thing I didn't see mentioned here is the size variation in the drop links. The 914 drop links are roughly 3/4" longer.

As I see it, and how it pertains to the original poster, there are two options.

What's required:

Through body - A complete bar assembly, including; bar, end caps, arms, drop links and possibly u-tabs (depending upon what is included or not on the current a-arms). You'll need new bushings. You'll need an Engman body support piece. You'll someone to cut and weld on your body and you'll need to yank the tank to do it all. You should prime those areas and possibly re-apply the undercoating.

Under Body - You'll need the entire bar set up. You'll also need the rear brackets and possibly a crossbar from a later 911 (or some modifications to your own that would probably require pulling it). No welding and cutting but a fair amount of front suspension bits and pieces swapping. You'll need the A-Arms or you'll need to modify your by adding the later style mounts. The sway-bar mounts are different on the A-Arms. Personally, for a street car, I think keeping the 17mm t-bars is a good idea... soon you'll have 23mm t-bars and 26mm sway bars and the intent was to simply drive the car on the street. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Also... 914's don't need strut braces (yes, we're watching you Chappy) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The factory did a fine job of placing bulkheads in the proper places front and rear.

If'n I was the original poster here (and I ain't) I would do this:

1. Find a stock 914 bar set up (all the bits). Should be around $100-150
2. Call Mark Bland and get the body mounts.
3. Call Pelican and get all new bushings.
4. Call my friend with a welder.
5. Plan a weekend. Buy beer for the welder guy. Saturday AM, yank the tank, cut the holes and prep for welding. Weld. Paint. Undercoat. Install bar. Put the tank back in.
6. Sunday - Go for a drive.

Search is your friend...

[drgchapman]

Also... 914's don't need strut braces (yes, we're watching you Chappy) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The factory did a fine job of placing bulkheads in the proper places front and rear.

Shoot,....I don't think I said a 914 needs a strut brace, 911's have that option. Everybody knows 914's don't need strut braces! Duh! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)