 914 EV discussion, Who's doing or done an electric 914? |
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| Joe Bob |
 Feb 21 2008, 09:23 PM
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#1
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Retired admin, banned a few times  Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None  |
http://www.electroauto.com/gallery/vp914.shtml
http://electric914.wordpress.com/ http://www.evcl.com/914/ Electro Automotive has a kit for 14K...yikes..... Otmar seems to be REAL busy building components..... I'm thinkng of doing one for my twins..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I have two years to get it done..... |
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Replies(40 - 59)
| Joe Bob |
Feb 24 2008, 08:34 AM
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#41
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
E85 needs a dedicated engine designed for that fuel. It also needs a stainless steel exhaust system. The entrained water rots the system otherwise.
There are only 2 e85 stations in Santa Barbara, one at the air force base the other at the university....both dedicated to fleet services and not open to the public. The require special tanks and delivery systems. With the the new tank regs at Water Quality they have been letting them do new systems w/o the former requirements for methanol and e85 compatablity... and many have just two tanks, 87 and 91 with a blend valve for the mid grade. So, for CA, the availability for the public isn't there.... We have a proposed Ethanol plant going into Guadalupe CA....a tiny town that the railroad forgot. They projectt 200 rail cars a day of corn....they would cut the town in two. Heart attack? Ya needs a helicopter to get over the trains.....they are in the middle of the best farmland in the area and they want to IMPORT corn..... morons.... |
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| neo914-6 |
Feb 25 2008, 03:31 PM
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#42
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neo life Group: Members Posts: 5,086 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Willow Glen (San Jose) Member No.: 159 |
QUOTE(356 @ Feb 22 2008, 07:58 AM)  The Auto Electric "kit" claims 100-150 miles on a 144 volt system using the AC motor.....but at $15K, they can bite my ass. My office has charging stations...free fuel.....I can get a roller for next to nothing, I've done 15+ restorations on the 914s.....if I can get a reasonable load of AC/DC ideas and equipment for around 5K, I would think it would be a fun project. My daughters would have a cheap reliable ride to school and I'd be the only guy on my block with one... Wilderness E.V. appears to sell cheaper DC kits I know another local buyer who said AE takes a long time to deliver their parts... |
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| Joe Bob |
Feb 25 2008, 03:48 PM
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#43
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(neo914-6 @ Feb 25 2008, 01:31 PM) QUOTE(356 @ Feb 22 2008, 07:58 AM) The Auto Electric "kit" claims 100-150 miles on a 144 volt system using the AC motor.....but at $15K, they can bite my ass. My office has charging stations...free fuel.....I can get a roller for next to nothing, I've done 15+ restorations on the 914s.....if I can get a reasonable load of AC/DC ideas and equipment for around 5K, I would think it would be a fun project. My daughters would have a cheap reliable ride to school and I'd be the only guy on my block with one... Wilderness E.V. appears to sell cheaper DC kits I know another local buyer who said AE takes a long time to deliver their parts... Yes...quite a bit cheaper....What I'd really like....is to see a 914 or other EV conversion up close. Are the there any EV car shows in CA? Another question....I constantly see 8 and 9" motors mentioned...but the size doesn't seem to correlate with hp or torque. Then I see the Wilderness site calls out a 6.75 incher and 90hp.... |
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| banger |
Feb 26 2008, 03:13 PM
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#44
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Member Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 12-November 06 From: Santa Clarita Member No.: 7,205 Region Association: Southern California |
Initially they start out a little low on capacity, then increase in the first 20 cycles as the batteries in the pack balance out. Then they seem to do well for 50-100 cycles. At that point you will start to notice the range dropping. The cold can drop the range pretty quick as well. I would put some battery heaters in, so that you can still drive it when it is cold.
QUOTE(pjf @ Feb 24 2008, 05:52 AM) Do lead acid batteries really degrade immediately? I thought after an initial break-in period (and with regular use) they would have a period of time where their capacity would be essentially the same and only tail off at the end of their life. |
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| banger |
Feb 26 2008, 03:22 PM
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#45
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Member Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 12-November 06 From: Santa Clarita Member No.: 7,205 Region Association: Southern California |
E85 is ethanol, which is a little easier to handle than methanol. The exhaust isnt a problem, since once the engine is up to temp, any water in the exhaust is steam anyways. In some ways the engine is best if it is built for E85. If you run a regular engine on E85, you will have slightly reduced performance. But if you build an engine with E85 in mind, then you can raise the compression ration and take advantage of the higher octane. There is one filling station open to the public in Los Angeles. It is in westwood, behind the VA hospital. There website is Here They are actually running a special on E85 today, for 85 cents per gallon.
To convert a 914 you would need stainless steel fuel lines, new rubber fuel lines, and larger injectors. There have been a number of people who have converted air cooled VW engines to E85. The biggest benefits are the ability to run a higher compression ration, and head temps REDUCED by 40-50 degrees! QUOTE(356 @ Feb 24 2008, 06:34 AM) E85 needs a dedicated engine designed for that fuel. It also needs a stainless steel exhaust system. The entrained water rots the system otherwise. There are only 2 e85 stations in Santa Barbara, one at the air force base the other at the university....both dedicated to fleet services and not open to the public. The require special tanks and delivery systems. With the the new tank regs at Water Quality they have been letting them do new systems w/o the former requirements for methanol and e85 compatablity... and many have just two tanks, 87 and 91 with a blend valve for the mid grade. So, for CA, the availability for the public isn't there.... We have a proposed Ethanol plant going into Guadalupe CA....a tiny town that the railroad forgot. They projectt 200 rail cars a day of corn....they would cut the town in two. Heart attack? Ya needs a helicopter to get over the trains.....they are in the middle of the best farmland in the area and they want to IMPORT corn..... morons.... |
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| Joe Bob |
Feb 26 2008, 08:01 PM
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#46
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
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| Eric_Shea |
Feb 26 2008, 08:27 PM
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#47
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,275 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains  |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) Wilderness is here in Lehi (no Z... you can't stay at the house, at least while the wife and chitlin's are home) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif)
GT bodied teener. Palo Alto build a VDO looking amp and volt meter. Batteries in the front, fuel tank and rear (or trays in the engine compartment. $995 for a solar charger... Might be a good future car for Ron's future wife. Might as well get him working on it now! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) |
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| Joe Bob |
Feb 26 2008, 08:36 PM
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#48
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
Looking into what they sell...Wilderness will get it done but may be the low end on the performance market. I'd like /6 performance and not Yugo slug bug.....
Looking at individual parts purchases...seems like the Zilla controller by Otmar is the top of the class. But everyone won't calls, deals only with emails and seems to have back orders from hell.....makes AA seem fast....old joke.... As to staying at YOUR house? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA! Hey kid...pull my finger, get me a beer.... |
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| pjf |
Feb 27 2008, 07:37 PM
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#49
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Member Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: 27-September 04 From: Ipswich, MA Member No.: 2,840 |
Wilderness does have a low price but if you want performance you probably want to look at a better motor and controller than what they offer. The WarP motor looks to be built to take abuse so you may want to go with it for max acceleration. They supposedly have oversized brushes to handle higher currents and the brushes can be advanced to reduce draw at high rpms. NetGain (who makes the WarP motors) said in an email that racers run 170 volts and 2000 amps through the 9" motor to get about 450hp (for a short burst). Now you and I can't do that in a 914 (just yet) but it nice to know the motor can do it. I'm looking at running 144v and 500 amps for about 95hp. This will only be for short bursts as well and range and battery life will take a hit but its a 914 so I want to be able to move out some of the time. For max range things will have to be a alot tamer. I'm going to go with the Zilla and hopefully figure out how to pull the full 1000 amps the controller will handle for about 190hp. A nice feature of the Zilla is that you can have 2 sets of settings: one for distance and another for performance and go between them with a flick of a switch. The Zilla also is liquid cooled which eliminates worrying about blowing the controller which I understand can happen with an air-cooled unit.
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| Joe Bob |
Feb 27 2008, 08:46 PM
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#50
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
Does WarP provide the adapter plate?
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| pjf |
Feb 27 2008, 09:16 PM
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#51
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Member Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: 27-September 04 From: Ipswich, MA Member No.: 2,840 |
No, you have to get it somewhere else but the WarP 9" motor is supposed to be bolt compatible with an Advanced DC 9" which is very common. For some reason adaptor plates can be pricey but they can be had by the places that sell EV parts. The 914 is not an exotic transmission to mate to so you shouldn't have any problem getting one. I recently got a CD with videos on how to make your own adaptor plate. If you're interested in it I can get you the details.
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| Joe Bob |
Feb 27 2008, 10:16 PM
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#52
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
Sure....
My email is 356@cox.net I've been cruising all the sites trying to pick up all the slang, terminology and wade thru the dreck.....seems like there are tons of people that are trying to do it. Lot's of invest with me...I'm building a prototype.....websites.... Also the biggest lmit seems to be batteries. No one can get ....reliably....anything but lead acid and those are pricey and expensive even if you CAN get a break in price for 20+ units.... I work for a environmental agency and also have connections with an alternative transportation agency. They NO ONE on staff or ANY imformation on EVs. We had four of them a few years back....two RAVs and two Ford trucks....always breaking down and now they are gone. But the charging units are still there and can be activated when anyone shows up with the right onboard equipment.... |
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| pjf |
Feb 28 2008, 04:29 PM
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#53
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Member Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: 27-September 04 From: Ipswich, MA Member No.: 2,840 |
I sent you an email with the link for the adaptor CD. The only affordable type of battery I've been able to come up with is lead/acid. A little over $100 each puts you at around $2000 for 20 and less if you use 18 8v's. They have their problems but at least getting a pack doesn't break the bank.
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| Joe Bob |
Feb 28 2008, 05:10 PM
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#54
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
Thanks for the email....you must be getting good prices on batteries or haven't bought any lately....I'm seeing 150+ out here.
They have been blaming it on the Chinese driving up metal prices.... |
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| Chris Pincetich |
Feb 28 2008, 07:24 PM
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#55
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B-) Group: Members Posts: 2,082 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Point Reyes Station, CA Member No.: 4,907 Region Association: Northern California |
9" DC motor, >140 volts, remove that big 1st gear out of your 901, and power it with 200 series-wired laptop batteries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
The AC costs way more...I recently saw something where capacitors were wired in series to get BIG voltage gains for performance, coupled to regen braking and other batteries for some logevity. I got a contact a year ago from Metric Mind - dude bought a 993 shell and $30K of the best AC parts and would sell the EV parts for $20K. Definitely ask the suppliers about that! Craigslist had an add for the EA 914 AC kit here in NorCal, but the add was gone in a week. From the reading I've done, it seems like another hurdle is tuning. I could build the thing, but it would need a controller with an interface that I could pay a computer geek to tune the controller for my particular batteries+car weight+driving style. Go for it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) |
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| Joe Bob |
Feb 28 2008, 07:33 PM
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#56
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Retired admin, banned a few times Group: Members Posts: 17,427 Joined: 24-December 02 From: Boulder CO Member No.: 5 Region Association: None |
144 volts and 12volt batteries don't look to be the answer....I'm seeing AMPS as the power and it looks like the 6V deep cycle battery used for golf carts is the thing.....
6v X 20 (batteries) and a Zilla controller. The 6v batteries pack a HUGE punch......double DC motor..... Check out Otmar's ride....arrrararrararraaarrrr, power.....he's running 240v with 20 Exide Orbital, 12.00 Volt, Lead-Acid, AGM....he must have a deal with a battery company cause that big $$ in batteries..... http://www.evalbum.com/293 (IMG:http://www.evalbum.com/img/293/293c.jpg) (IMG:http://www.evalbum.com/img/293/293e.jpg) |
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| pjf |
Feb 28 2008, 08:27 PM
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#57
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Member Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: 27-September 04 From: Ipswich, MA Member No.: 2,840 |
What can I tell you? When I saw $150 each for a 6v battery I called my local "battery guy" and he quoted me $109 and change. This was just a few days ago. It is on the other coast so that may make a difference. I agree that 144v using 12v batteries is not much good. You could blast around the neighborhood but you'd better not go too far. A better idea is using 18 8v batteries. Its supposed to be a compromise between distance and performance.
As far as tuning a controller. If you want simplicity you can go with a Curtis controller that has no programming at all. With the Zilla you have settting to play with but a computer or adapted Palm will do the trick and it doesn't sound that hard. |
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| banger |
Feb 29 2008, 07:41 AM
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#58
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Member Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 12-November 06 From: Santa Clarita Member No.: 7,205 Region Association: Southern California |
When buying batteries, you must keep in mind that not all batteries are created equal. Most people think that all 6v golf cart batteries will be close to the same. There are wide variances between battery manufactures. Ask for a datasheet on the batteries, and look at the discharge curves for each battery you are considering. Some batteries may have the same Ah capacity, at a 20 hour rate, but when you try to pull 500-1000 amps on them, they are completely different. Some of the cheaper batteries are unable to supply high currents efficiently, and will generate an excess amount of heat.
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| neo914-6 |
Feb 29 2008, 09:03 AM
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#59
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neo life Group: Members Posts: 5,086 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Willow Glen (San Jose) Member No.: 159 |
QUOTE(356 @ Feb 28 2008, 05:33 PM) 144 volts and 12volt batteries don't look to be the answer....I'm seeing AMPS as the power and it looks like the 6V deep cycle battery used for golf carts is the thing..... 6v X 20 (batteries) and a Zilla controller. The 6v batteries pack a HUGE punch......double DC motor..... Check out Otmar's ride....arrrararrararraaarrrr, power.....he's running 240v with 20 Exide Orbital, 12.00 Volt, Lead-Acid, AGM....he must have a deal with a battery company cause that big $$ in batteries..... In a video interview I believe Otmar stated he had over 25k in parts alone, definately a quality and pricey conversion. It may have included the 930 gearbox but I think he got that before they were desirable/expensive... I read AC is more costly and more complex/tuneable... Here's a good breakdown. Look into these battery suppliers. You may need connections as some only sell to OEM's Altair Nanotechnologies lithium-titanate A123 Systems MES-DEA ZEBRA EEStor Valence Technology |
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| sean_v8_914 |
Mar 5 2008, 01:24 PM
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#60
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Chingon 601 Group: Members Posts: 4,011 Joined: 1-February 05 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,541 |
bump
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