http://www.electroauto.com/gallery/vp914.shtml
http://electric914.wordpress.com/
http://www.evcl.com/914/

Electro Automotive has a kit for 14K...yikes.....
Otmar seems to be REAL busy building components.....

I'm thinkng of doing one for my twins.....
I have two years to get it done.....

http://www.kta-ev.com/catalog/index.html

This seems to be a better way to go.....

Lots of people have done 914 EVs. Here are some links:

• http://914ev.blogspot.com/
• http://groups.google.com/group/914ev
• http://evcl.com/914/
• http://www.evalbum.com/type/PORS

Skip Montanaro

It all depends what you are looking to get from a conversion. An AC drive system is the most efficient. DC will give you more torque and HP. DC will have a more limited range than an AC system. It also depend what your motive is for converting as well. Electric vehicles arent very cost effective when it comes to driving. Currently lead acid batteries are a lousy way to power a vehicle. They are too heavy, and have a very limited lifespan. Nimh works well, but are difficult to get. Li-ion works very well, but needs careful battery management.

Mine: http://volt914.blogspot.com

I'm restoring a '76 914 intending to convert it to electric. I've been kicking around the AC/DC question while I'm welding and have come to the decision that DC is the only way to go. AC is more efficient than DC but only slightly so. You do get regenerative braking with AC but again the gains are not that great (like 10%). There is really only one anywhere near affordable AC system for the 914 and that's the one used by ElectroAutomotive AC kit. Unfortunately it delivers about half the horsepower of the 914 gas engine and the car weighs about twice as much after the conversion. You are supposed to get more range with an AC system but with amount of electricity used quotes I've seen I'm doubtful. With DC you have more options, horsepower, and torque. You can match or exceed the horsepower and torque of the original engine. I'm looking at a Zilla controller (from Otmar) and a WarP motor right now as the best options. As far as lead acid batteries go, yes they are heavy and they don't last forever (2-3 years) but they are the best we have right now and they can be used to make an electric car with decent performance and range. All the other options are just too expensive right now. As far as costs go, the parts are expensive but will last (except for the batteries) pretty much forever. The motors for instance (with brushes replaced) will go a million miles. Once you get past the price of the conversion parts the actual cost of batteries and electricity I work out to be less than $3/gallon gas.
If you have any question or want to discuss this further, I'd be glad to.

P.S. That avatar is going to be hard to look at alot dude.

You may want to look the the ford ranger ev motor that is on ebay. For $2000 the price isnt bad. The nice thing about the AC motors is that they have nice flat torque from 0-4000 rpm, and typically have a top speed of 12-13,000 rpm. As for batteries, there are some sources of Nicd cells which work quite well. As for the cost effectiveness, a 914 that gets 30mpg costs 10 cents per mile with gas costing $3/gallon. If you use lead acid batteries on a 914, you would probably get around 50 miles per charge. If you figure a battery cost of $3000, and around 300 cycles, then the cost per mile for just the batteries is 20 cents. Add to this the cost of recharging at around 3 cents per mile, and you are up to 23 cents per mile. This ends up being far more expensive than driving the gas version. If you are able to use a better battery technology, then you can get the cost down. The Nimh batteries used in the EV-1 and RAV4-EV have a life of around 100,000 miles, which makes the cost of operating them much lower. A Nicd or Nimh pack may cost double or triple the cost, but will last more than three times longer. It just a bit hard to get over the initial sticker shock of the batteries.

Except as I recall it doesn't come with the inverter which is NLA, which makes the motor pretty much worthless.

Skip

The horsepower ratings on electric motors are continuous. The ratings on gas engines are peak HP.

Skip

The Auto Electric "kit" claims 100-150 miles on a 144 volt system using the AC motor.....but at $15K, they can bite my ass.

My office has charging stations...free fuel.....I can get a roller for next to nothing, I've done 15+ restorations on the 914s.....if I can get a reasonable load of AC/DC ideas and equipment for around 5K, I would think it would be a fun project.

My daughters would have a cheap reliable ride to school and I'd be the only guy on my block with one...

The inverter is just a siemens Simovert, which can be purchased from Metricmind. The AC motors are pretty much all the same, you could use an inverter from Siemens, Brusa, or Azure Dynamics.

I have to respectfully disagree with Banger's estimate of the cost per mile for an electric 914. The price of 20 6v lead acid batteries is more like $2000, not $3000. They are rated at 550 cycles at 80% degree of discharge which works out to $3.63 per charge. The pack will hold about 18kwh of electricity at .15/kwh equals $2.70. Total cost $6.33 for about 60 miles or $.1055/mile. Gas at $3 for 30mpg is $.10. Any estimate has some slop in it but I think electric cars using even low-tech batteries are now cost-effective.
The problem with the Ranger EV motor is that the converter is expensive and it runs at a much higher voltage. Higher voltage battery packs are more expensive.
I really doubt ElectroAutomotive's estimate of 100-150 miles. From the electricity usage numbers I got from someone running a car with the kit, it doesn't add up. AC systems are not that much more efficient. $15K for the ElectoAutomotive kit is steep, too steep for me. A DC system where you do things like build the battery boxes yourself can save you alot. I think the estimate is more like $8K. I haven't added up what I'll be spending but its not $15K I can tell you that.
I know that electric motors are rated with continuous HP rather than peak as is the case for gas engines but half the horsepower continuous is still not enough. I've asked someone who used the AC kit in a 914 and they agree. The flat torque curve is nice but it can't make up for the lower horsepower it would seem. DC motors can and are abused and in the extreme case racers get over 400hp from the 9" motor that I plan on using. I'm not going to go that far and with Otmar's controller are shooting for more like 200hp for short bursts.
I too think this will be a fun project. Good luck and let me know if I can help with anything.

Looking over my last post I realized I messed up the HP comparison. The AC motor used in the ElectroMotive kit generates half the PEAK horsepower not half the continuous horsepower. The continuous rating is in the 20's. You can get a peak HP rating of electric motor for a easier comparison to a gas engine. The EV1 used 2 of the motors equivalent to the one used in AC 914s too.

The horsepower rating for an electric motor is also tied to a specific input voltage, e.g.:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showt...-144v-4333.html

Skip

Do you mind posting what the the motor, inverter, controller ran price wise and what manufacturer did you choose and why you went that way? If you'd rather you can email me 356@cox.net.

On shifting? Do you shift thru the gears or do you simply use 3rd or 4th and just tromp on it?

I see plans that use a clutch package, if it's a direct drive with a forward and reverse gear...why the need for a clutch? I've seen schematics for golf carts and such that don't use any clutch at all....

The charging stations at our office have 2 different style plugs....I assume due to manufacturer's choice, Beta versus whatever....do you plan on home charging or is there a "Public Charging" station format?

Further.....are NiMH or Li batteries available in the car battery format?

I too have been kicking this idea around lately. My plan was to keep the teener as a gasser but find a lotus 7 replica for EV. To really exploit the advantages of electric one needs minimal weight.

I have messed around alot w/electric RC planes and although the cost seems high the power to weight of a brushless and LIpo package is incredible, and effiecient , and reliable.

Whatever method one chooses the amount of juice available dictates how well it'll go. For example, the Tesla literature tells us that 200KW is what it takes to make a sporting EV. Batteries are the biggest drawback it seems.

There was a guy who parted a wrecked Prius for a supply of NiMH packs. Found him somewhere in the locostusa.com forums certainly lighter than lead, but as Mike asked about a car battery format...is that what you would want...awfully big and bulky vice other methods.

Sorry I can't be more helpful as I have only a casual understanding of whats involved.

You really need a higher no cost goal to go electric since the car and conversion will cost ~15k. After a decade of continuous gas saving you'll need to use that savings for battery replacement. Until component costs come down and better battery technology comes available, you will be a pioneer an part of a movement and statement against oil consumption. More demand will eventually increase manufacturing and lower these costs. I applaud all those who took the first steps and invested in this movement...

Current 914 owner/builders:
• Otmar, Otmar CA 74 two 8" Advanced DC motors, Zilla cntrllr
• sgomes, Shannon CA 73 Electric 120Volts, a Zilla cntrllr
• stwspoon, Stan CA 75 9" Advanced DC motor, 114V w/Curtis cntrllr
• TimK Tim OR 144 volt AC kit
• PThompson509 Peter CA
• Racunniff CO 144 volt AC kit
• Mike914 Mike CA http://www.roadglue.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=79279&hl=
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=74919&hl=
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=74743&hl=
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=74586&hl=
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=73178&hl=
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=69980&hl=

If GM does what they plan, you can buy a Volt in a few years.

I wouldn't be interested in an electric 914 unless it could compete with the Tesla performance wise.

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Too bad the Tesla is so darn expensive.

The price on Trojan T-105 batteries are around $150ea. This gives a pack cost of $3000 for 20. You could go for cheap wal-mart golf batteries, but then you get what you pay for. As for charging, the Trojans are rated at 220ah multiply this by 120v, and you get 26kw. Then take 80% of this and you have 20kw, now divide by the charger efficiency 94%, and you end up with 21.3kw. Multiply this by .15/kwh, and you get $3.15, then divide 50 miles, and you get 6.3 cents per mile for just the power.

The other problem has to do with the cycle life. If you have good batteries, and limit the depth of discharge, then you will get more cycles. But you also have to remember that the capacity is still declining with each cycle. Lead acid batteries last between 300 and 500 cycles. At this point you will be down to 50-60 percent of initial capacity. To prevent further damage to the battery, they should only be discharged to 80%. If you drive the vehicle every week day, and use only 1 cycle per day, then your batteries will last 18-24 months. If you drive it every day, then the time will be less. Also keep in mind that the batteries will decline with age whether they are used or not. The will also need to be charged as soon as they are used, since letting them sit will result in sulfation.

And for some background, I currently own 2 electric vehicles, and owned 2 others prior to the current ones. I have owned a 48V dc powered car, 120V DC powered truck and two 312v AC powered trucks. I can tell you all the ins and outs of owning and driving electric vehicles. My daily driver is 98 Ford Ranger EV, which gets driven around 30-40 miles per day.

Wait for the first A-List star to wrap his around a telephone pole and use his Tesla for a Donor.

How much ya think a loaded Elise tub weighs compared to a bare teener at 500 lbs.

The 914 could be converted into "Tesla" quite easily. It is possible to buy the same components used in the Tesla. Just have your checkbook ready to write a check for $45-50K for the components, including Li-ion battery pack.

The 2 types of chargers are either Conductive - Avcon, or Inductive - Small or Large paddle. The only type that is usable is the Avcon, which you could use with the input connector, and a charger that will run on 220v. The inductive paddle systems were proprietary, so these are no longer an option.

I'm one of the "idiots" doing the conversion. I am also one of the idiots (note the lack of quotes) that bought from Electro Auto. Their stuff IS quite good, but dang. I've been waiting for the all of the parts since forever. I paid them back in July of last year. Still missing a few parts, but ready to start ripping things out.

Once I've got it up and running, I'll see if I can get 150 miles per charge. I'm pessimistic about that. Especially considering my lead foot.

As for the cost, well, I have solar panels and can also charge at work. So the cost of charging is nil. The batteries will run me about $2000. The kit (sigh) was $14k. The 914 *was* $7k, but with the trans rebuild, brake rebuild, and the eventual repaint.....I'm looking at a $30k car. At least.

The good thing is that I LOVE my 914. I'm really hoping that the AC motor is going to be strong enough to push the car around the way I want. It's not gonna be a Tesla, that's for sure.

Cheers!

I am sure that you probably could get 150 miles on one charge. The problem is that nobody would really want to drive that way. What fun is it to hve an electric vehicle, and not be able to launch at every stop light? If you were to run the car in 5th gear, and slowly nurse it up to speed, and not do any stopping or starting, you could get 150 miles.

I didnt say anyone is an idiot for doing a conversion, just make sure you are doing it for the right reasons, since having a cheaper vehicle is not one of them. To save weight, and extend range,y uo could look at using BB600 Nicd batteries. These are available surplus, and work quite well. Or you could run the car off of Prius batteries, which would cut the weight down considerably.

And those batteries are available where?????

AND.....Anyone have an answer on the shifting thing? One gear and boom or can you shift to get better performance from a lower HP electric motor?

Hey Mikey! Good to see some discussion about EV 914's here...

Yes, shifting will give you all the advantages of torque multiplication, it's just not a requirement for an EV. It's a trade-off: keeping the tranny/clutch you already have vs. direct drive gearbox (custom fitting the axles and mounts, etc). The trans will result in lower costs since you can use a smaller motor/controller. To get the same performance in a direct-drive system the motor/controller must provide huge amounts of torque to get off the line, AND be able to reach a high enough RPM for cruising speed, so you need to calculate the gear ratio carefully. It's all easier with the tranny, you can try different gears to see what works for you. You can even leave it in gear and start without the clutch for those that don't do manual yet, reverse is the only time you NEED to shift, although the AC controller I bought has provisions for electric reverse (had to add the wires to the harness in my case, but it could have been done at the vendor).

The real reason I went with AC is the regen braking. DC kits have been available for years now, but just did not do what I wanted.

Anyone who has ever driven a 914 knows you drive with the throttle, right? I was unwilling to lose the "Compression Braking" effect that regen provides. Think about it, with a DC system you would have to brake all the way down every hill, and for every corner. For me that just would not work.

I went with ElectroAuto since they are local, and yes I'm still waiting on parts for the regen and meters, it's only been since October '07...

Check out the thread on RoadGlue. I went with the generic AC kit, so had to build my own battery racks which allowed me to reduce the weight of the batteries and locate them lower. I'm not going to get much range (don't need it) but should still have the cornering ability of a 914 intact, something that will be compromised with the EA battery arrangement.

Good luck, it's only time and money!

I'm an instant gratification type of guy....I pay for someting I expect to get it within "X" amount of days.....

That's what pissed me off so much about my 356 project.....guys says he has it and I pay and all of a sudden it's a back order. Mikey don't play that game.

So looks like I will be looking for other vendors besides Auto Electric....BTW....what's the owner's name at Auto Electric?

Be fun if I could find someone up to his ears in stuff, decided to bail and I could buy it at 10 cents on the dollar...

There are a few other vendors out there you might want to contact:

• Metric Mind - http://www.metricmind.com/
• evparts.com - http://www.evparts.com/
• Canadian Electric Vehicles - http://www.canev.com/

I'm sure there must be others, but these are the three I have bookmarked or could remember off the top of my head.

Skip

The BB600 nicad cells are often available government surplus. There is a yahoo group discussing them as well. Many users have reported the batteries lasting over 15 years, and still putting out full capacity. As for the EV components, I would look at evparts.com or cloudelectric.com. I have ordered from both companies, and they have both been quick for delivery. As for used, or cheaper components, you might want to check www.austinev.org/evtradinpost. An AC conversion has many advantages, since the regen is built in etc. You could use the Ranger EV motor from ebay, this would give you 90hp, and 150 pounds of torque. You would be able to run with the transmission in 3rd gear, and not have to worry about shifting. Or you could shift to 1st, and have a little fun.

356, to answer your question about the parts I'm using, I haven't bought anything yet but I'm thinking about using:

Motor: NetGain WarP 9"
http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp9.php

Controller: Zilla Z1K 156v 1000amp
http://www.evsource.com/tls_zilla.php

Charger:
Manzanita Micro PFC-30
http://www.evsource.com/tls_pfc30.php

If you have any questions about why I like these guys, let me know.

About the clutch and shifting, all the 914 conversion (AC and DC) that I've seen keep the clutch and transmission. You drive the car slightly differently but I like the idea of continuing to clutch and shift. From the ElectroAutomotive DC kit instructions I got the following max speeds in each gear:

24mph in 1st
38mph in 2nd
57mph in 3rd
78mph in 4th
(I guess in 5th you can go as fast as the car will go)

Keep in mind this is for the DC motor. The AC operates well over a larger rpm range.

You also asked about my charging plans. I plan on using a 30 amp 220v outlet in my garage and a 220v ?? amp outlet at a charging station at work. They have different plug types so I plan on using an adaptor to attach to the one at work.

Others have talked about the different battery types for an electric car. NiMh, LiOn, and NiCds are all better than lead/acid but they are beyond my price range. Since the other types can be cycled many more times, some even have a cheaper cost per cycle but the initial price is too high for me. I'm considering inviting everyone I know with a hybrid over and stripping out their batteries when they're not looking.

I too have "Tesla envy". 200kw would be sweet. The setup I'm considering should be able to be pushed to 144kw though and be about double the hp of the original 914. The car will be alot heavier but I'm hoping for decent performance.

I also double checked my estimate for the cost per mile of an electric 914. I got a local quote of $109.63 for a US Battery 125 6v battery. This battery is what I was planning on using and is very similiar to the Trojan T-105 that banger quoted at $150. 20 US 125's would cost $2192.60. This price difference accounts for alot of the difference in our two estimates. I used 550 cycles at 80% discharge from the US Battery website putting the cost per cycle at $3.99 a cycle. I estimate 60 miles per charge assuming 200wh/mile which I believe is a good average for a converted 914. This puts the battery cost at $.066/mile. I thought I had a good way of estimating the cost of electricity but even using banger's higher $3.15 per charge this works out to $.052/mile. Again I'm assuming 60 miles per charge which should be possible unless I'm missing something (which is certainly possible). Total cost is $.118/mile. This is more than the $.10/mile for gas at $3/gallon and 30mpg but its not bad.

I signed up for the EVDL discussion list....hope it's a little more tolerant than the 356talk list.

Anyways, searched the archives for 914 conversions and got a pile back.....
http://www.evalbum.com/type/PORS
I saw that Otmar has TWO 8 inch motors bolted together.....WTF?

Mike Zois

I too have been toying with the idea of an electric 914, but the high intro price of the Electromotive kit is daunting. It's great to see this discussion and find new sources of information. There is one comment I wanted to make about the cost per mile discussion: watching the Nightly news tonight, gasoline is above $3.00 today and the pundits are predicting $4.00/gal by this Spring. Considering that gasoline will continue to trend up and improvements in battery technology will result in lighter, higher capacity, longer lasting and cheaper batteries in the future, electric 914's and other cars of that size and competence look like the future. Or maybe TDI diesels, running on biodiesel...daveyboy

There are other options as well, if you are just looking to reduce your cost. You could burn E85, which is slightly less than gasoline. It does have the advantage of 105 octane though. Another option is propane, which is about 30% less than gas, and also 115 octane. And finally there is CNG compressed natural gas. This is more like the electric conversion, since you will have a more limited range, due to the size of the tanks. But CNG can also be filled up at home, so each night you plug in your car, and have a full tank of cng in the morning. I personally am opting for E85, and am building an engine for it.

Otmars car is built for acceleration, which is why he has 2 motors. This car also goes 0-60 in less than 5 seconds. But all this is at the expense of range, which is why he states "22 miles, if I am good"

Just be careful with your calculations. 550 cycles is a bit optimistic. Look at the test parameters, and see how it compares to real world. The test doesnt involve pulling 1000 amps from the battery on acceleration, which heavily stresses the battery and greatly reduces its life. The other thing people forget is that their distance will be reducing every time you drive the vehicle. The figure that if they have 40 miles range it will be fine for them to make the 30 mile round trip to work and back. This is fine until the batteries start to age, after 6000 miles or so, you find that you can only go 20 miles. Also battery temperature is very important, even in southern california, the temperature has a large impact on range. If you live in a colder climate you will need to have battery heaters to keep them warm. I am telling you all this, not because I am an A**hole, and trying to discourage you. I am telling this because I have done it all before. I was one of the first people to put aftermarket batteries in the Ford Ranger EV. I also had the Ranger with the greatest range, and could go 80-90 miles at freeway speeds of 70-75 mph. I can also tell you how depressing it is to spend $5000 on batteries, and then 12,000 miles later, only have half the range that you originally had. This is the reason why I am converting my truck to Nimh. With Nimh, you have more range for a given pack weight and size, the cycle life is better, and cold weather performance is better.

There is no substitution for real-world experience with this stuff and I for one want to thank you for your comments. You are right about real world conditions and 550 cycles may be unrealistic. Pulling 1000 amps is definitely not going to help the batteries any and certainly not to be done if you want any kind of range. Temperature has to be taken into account too. I don't plan on using my car in the cold weather because its range will be greatly reduced. Do lead acid batteries really degrade immediately? I thought after an initial break-in period (and with regular use) they would have a period of time where their capacity would be essentially the same and only tail off at the end of their life.

E85 needs a dedicated engine designed for that fuel. It also needs a stainless steel exhaust system. The entrained water rots the system otherwise.

There are only 2 e85 stations in Santa Barbara, one at the air force base the other at the university....both dedicated to fleet services and not open to the public. The require special tanks and delivery systems.

With the the new tank regs at Water Quality they have been letting them do new systems w/o the former requirements for methanol and e85 compatablity... and many have just two tanks, 87 and 91 with a blend valve for the mid grade.

So, for CA, the availability for the public isn't there....

We have a proposed Ethanol plant going into Guadalupe CA....a tiny town that the railroad forgot. They projectt 200 rail cars a day of corn....they would cut the town in two. Heart attack? Ya needs a helicopter to get over the trains.....they are in the middle of the best farmland in the area and they want to IMPORT corn.....

morons....

Wilderness E.V. appears to sell cheaper DC kits I know another local buyer who said AE takes a long time to deliver their parts...

Yes...quite a bit cheaper....What I'd really like....is to see a 914 or other EV conversion up close. Are the there any EV car shows in CA?

Another question....I constantly see 8 and 9" motors mentioned...but the size doesn't seem to correlate with hp or torque.

Then I see the Wilderness site calls out a 6.75 incher and 90hp....

Initially they start out a little low on capacity, then increase in the first 20 cycles as the batteries in the pack balance out. Then they seem to do well for 50-100 cycles. At that point you will start to notice the range dropping. The cold can drop the range pretty quick as well. I would put some battery heaters in, so that you can still drive it when it is cold.

E85 is ethanol, which is a little easier to handle than methanol. The exhaust isnt a problem, since once the engine is up to temp, any water in the exhaust is steam anyways. In some ways the engine is best if it is built for E85. If you run a regular engine on E85, you will have slightly reduced performance. But if you build an engine with E85 in mind, then you can raise the compression ration and take advantage of the higher octane. There is one filling station open to the public in Los Angeles. It is in westwood, behind the VA hospital. There website is Here They are actually running a special on E85 today, for 85 cents per gallon.

To convert a 914 you would need stainless steel fuel lines, new rubber fuel lines, and larger injectors. There have been a number of people who have converted air cooled VW engines to E85. The biggest benefits are the ability to run a higher compression ration, and head temps REDUCED by 40-50 degrees!

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dl...ctid=1432753810

Wilderness is here in Lehi (no Z... you can't stay at the house, at least while the wife and chitlin's are home)

GT bodied teener. Palo Alto build a VDO looking amp and volt meter. Batteries in the front, fuel tank and rear (or trays in the engine compartment. $995 for a solar charger...

Might be a good future car for Ron's future wife. Might as well get him working on it now!

Looking into what they sell...Wilderness will get it done but may be the low end on the performance market. I'd like /6 performance and not Yugo slug bug.....

Looking at individual parts purchases...seems like the Zilla controller by Otmar is the top of the class. But everyone won't calls, deals only with emails and seems to have back orders from hell.....makes AA seem fast....old joke....

As to staying at YOUR house? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!

Hey kid...pull my finger, get me a beer....

Wilderness does have a low price but if you want performance you probably want to look at a better motor and controller than what they offer. The WarP motor looks to be built to take abuse so you may want to go with it for max acceleration. They supposedly have oversized brushes to handle higher currents and the brushes can be advanced to reduce draw at high rpms. NetGain (who makes the WarP motors) said in an email that racers run 170 volts and 2000 amps through the 9" motor to get about 450hp (for a short burst). Now you and I can't do that in a 914 (just yet) but it nice to know the motor can do it. I'm looking at running 144v and 500 amps for about 95hp. This will only be for short bursts as well and range and battery life will take a hit but its a 914 so I want to be able to move out some of the time. For max range things will have to be a alot tamer. I'm going to go with the Zilla and hopefully figure out how to pull the full 1000 amps the controller will handle for about 190hp. A nice feature of the Zilla is that you can have 2 sets of settings: one for distance and another for performance and go between them with a flick of a switch. The Zilla also is liquid cooled which eliminates worrying about blowing the controller which I understand can happen with an air-cooled unit.

Does WarP provide the adapter plate?