SDS VS MS, I would like to figure this one out?????? Options

[mightyohm]

What was that recent post about stifling creativity?

[agrump]

I can do that, but on a T4 you can watch the head temps climb fast as soon as you start lean it out a cruise. Best I've hit is about 14:1 without the temps getting up there.
I can say for sure that's your heat soak issue and if you keep doing it it will waste your engine.

Your system and WB is only part of the package, you need to know your head and oil temps as well. This is not an option.

My CLT's run around 300 and oil just breaks 170 right now but it's still cool here, last summer was around 360 and 220 but with a different exhaust. Clt measured at the plug, oil in the standard location.

It's an interesting repeatable trend and I would like to see other people's data on it. It hasn't caused a driveability issue but I'm curious as to whether this is a characteristic of aircooled motors or MS. Does SDS not do this?

[yarin]

Hey Dean,

Can you please post your spark tables? I believe i'm running a bit too advanced, my head temps are high. Nice app.

I ran my air temp sensor in a custom intake pipe, no heat soak issues since it's mounted to PVC.

[r_towle]

Are you, Mark and Jake, confident enough to break a motor in using SDS only?

I ask because otherwise I would need carbs for three different combos as I get to each one, and that does not make sense.

This is purely for bench level break in (cam break in etc)
Once the motor is in the car, I can tune it from that point forward.

Is there enough canned a/f maps out there to get a decent baseline that wont flood the pistons?

Rich

[brer]

see my sig and contribute maybe?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[agrump]

Hey Dean,

Can you please post your spark tables? I believe i'm running a bit too advanced, my head temps are high. Nice app.

I ran my air temp sensor in a custom intake pipe, no heat soak issues since it's mounted to PVC.

Good idea about mounting the sensor in PVC, the stock plenum gets stupid hot. Care to share some pics?

My head temps are lower then normal since I’m running Nickies but I’ll post my table. Good idea about mounting the sensor in PVC, the stock plenum gets stupid hot.

Standard disclaimer that this may destroy your engine, blah, blah, blah


Sorry if I hijacked the thread, I’m a big fan of the MS system.

[G e o r g e]

Are you, Mark and Jake, confident enough to break a motor in using SDS only?

I ask because otherwise I would need carbs for three different combos as I get to each one, and that does not make sense.

This is purely for bench level break in (cam break in etc)
Once the motor is in the car, I can tune it from that point forward.

Is there enough canned a/f maps out there to get a decent baseline that wont flood the pistons?

Rich

rich

I broke in my fresh rebuild with SDS

I used the lean - rich knob to smooth out while keeping my rpms between 2-2.4K
for the 25 minutes or so went well in my opinion, and I'm working towards novice status (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[yarin]

Thanks for posting your table dean. When you get a chance, please send me the table file so i can adjust and import into megatune.

Here is a pic of my intake. I'm using stock 2.0L parts, without the air box. Just ran a 90 deg elbow to PVC and a K&N filter.

More pics in my sig..

(Pics are from early stages in the build, wires aren't cleaned up yet)
(IMG:http://farm1.static.flickr.com/70/193061139_837b19b969.jpg)

[Jake Raby]

FWIW,
Ross from SDS will be teaming up with me to complete a full DVD for the install of SDS and familiarization with aftermarket EFI systems this coming July.

This will be a reference unlike any other.. It'll be the best 40 bucks you can spend!

[Mark Henry]

Are you, Mark and Jake, confident enough to break a motor in using SDS only?

I ask because otherwise I would need carbs for three different combos as I get to each one, and that does not make sense.

This is purely for bench level break in (cam break in etc)
Once the motor is in the car, I can tune it from that point forward.

Is there enough canned a/f maps out there to get a decent baseline that wont flood the pistons?

Rich

Absolutely no problem as long as I have a wideband and a CHT. The baseline map from SDS will be right in the ballpark and with a WB if you can see if your A/F is OK and you're good to go.
BUT, there's a "but" on crankfire.

If you're using crankfire it is a bit trickier, as you must set your initial timing with a strobe at around idle. You can't set it static like you would a stock dizzy. On the crankfire you do change the timing through programming, BUT the first time you must use a strobe and "tell" the system (one time only) where the timing is (i.e. 10 degrees BTDC).
If you're fast and get it up to break-in RPM ASAP you should be OK.

Jake most likely (I'm guessing) gets around this using a known crankfire mount set up, or he has a non-crankfire SDS unit and uses a dizzy and set initial timing.
In other words if you use the same known system, disc and sensor/mount and nothing changes when you swap it out, you shouldn't have to set the initial timing.
On a dyno this is no problem, but it would be a real PITA to do on an installed engine.

Unfortunately if you have a crankfire SDS it won't work with a dizzy, as a non-crankfire SDS needs a tach signal. The CF tach signal comes off of the coilpack so there is no work around.

[JmuRiz]

From what I've read here is sounds like SDS is the way to go. I'd love to set my 914 AND my Benz to run SDS (just need to take the leap I guess...and find out how to convert the Benz to FI).

[Mark Henry]

From what I've read here is sounds like SDS is the way to go. I'd love to set my 914 AND my Benz to run SDS (just need to take the leap I guess...and find out how to convert the Benz to FI).

It will only work on the Benz if it's gas, but if it's a crankfire SDS system the Benz will be easier to do than the T4.

[r_towle]

Are you, Mark and Jake, confident enough to break a motor in using SDS only?

I ask because otherwise I would need carbs for three different combos as I get to each one, and that does not make sense.

This is purely for bench level break in (cam break in etc)
Once the motor is in the car, I can tune it from that point forward.

Is there enough canned a/f maps out there to get a decent baseline that wont flood the pistons?

Rich

Absolutely no problem as long as I have a wideband and a CHT. The baseline map from SDS will be right in the ballpark and with a WB if you can see if your A/F is OK and you're good to go.
BUT, there's a "but" on crankfire.

If you're using crankfire it is a bit trickier, as you must set your initial timing with a strobe at around idle. You can't set it static like you would a stock dizzy. On the crankfire you do change the timing through programming, BUT the first time you must use a strobe and "tell" the system (one time only) where the timing is (i.e. 10 degrees BTDC).
If you're fast and get it up to break-in RPM ASAP you should be OK.

Jake most likely (I'm guessing) gets around this using a known crankfire mount set up, or he has a non-crankfire SDS unit and uses a dizzy and set initial timing.
In other words if you use the same known system, disc and sensor/mount and nothing changes when you swap it out, you shouldn't have to set the initial timing.
On a dyno this is no problem, but it would be a real PITA to do on an installed engine.

Unfortunately if you have a crankfire SDS it won't work with a dizzy, as a non-crankfire SDS needs a tach signal. The CF tach signal comes off of the coilpack so there is no work around.

so for break in a stock dizzy should work??
Then go to Crank Fire prior to installing the engine??
That sounds more reasonable then having to setup carbs for break in and EFI for motor install.///

Rich

[McMark]

When I hear/read these discussions, I can't help but see a lot of apples-to-oranges comparisons.

1. Build Quality: SDS is professionally built, but MS is available as a pre-built and pre-tested unit as well. I would never recommend a built at home MS system to anyone but a veteran solder monkey. Not that a 'normal' person can't build one, but do you want to be an electronics expert? or do you want a running car? IMHO, you're already taking a big bite by going with any tunable FI. Advantage: TIE as long as you buy a pre-built MS.

2. Wiring Harness: Using the right connectors, the right wire, and the right layout is important to a wiring harness. If you're building a MS harness, it's up to you to do it right. Advantage: SDS

3. Software Complexity: MS has many more options than SDS. This can make it more difficult to tune, but if you zero extra parameters out and get familiar with the settings/software it should be comparable to the SDS. Advantage: SDS for 'beginners' and TIE for 'experts'.

4. Cost: SDS is around $1000 for brain, tuner, and wiring. MS is $400 for a build ECU. MS will require a laptop and wiring harness. Both units will require a TPS, MAP, and other sensors. Advantage: MS

So I don't think that either system has a clear cut advantage. SDS is simple and straightforward. But not everyone needs simple and straight-forward. For some people I would absolutely recommend carbs, because they are easy to set up for a daily driver. For some people I would recommend SDS because it's easier than MS. And some people have the skills and knowledge to work with a MS system. Anyone who insisted on running MS on a motor of mine would be treated to a long conversation about whether it was right for them or not. Jeff Keyzer has one of my motors that he set up with MS and it's running GREAT!

There's not going to be a final decision, where we can blow the whistle and establish a clear winner. The real question here is which system is right for you, your skills/knowledge, your desire to learn/tinker, your tolerance for risks/setbacks, etc. For each person it is different. It's not, "Which one is better?", it's "Which one is suited for me?".

[toon1]

I will blow the whistle and say

"advantage, McMark".

Well said!

Keith

[agrump]

Let's not forget some of the extra features that MS supports, MAF support, X-Tau accel/decel enrichment, short and long term map corrections, adjustable temperature bins for warmup, support for a wide range of idle controllers and very good tuneability for cranking/warmup. It's still not as completely integrated as an OEM ECU on even an entry level car but current plans are to take it to that level or better. It's one hell of a product but does require some smarts to realize it's full potential.

Done

[DNHunt]

Dean

Those items are only advantages if you need them. If you don't then they are at best something to ignore and at worst a source of confusion. Megasquirt has plenty of capabilities; it's just damn hard. I never could get around X-tau. I understood the theory but, trying to remember what factor or table to change was very confusing.

SDS in terms of features is very much like earlier versions of MS. For example, acceleration enrichment is 2 RPM bins with adjustable pulsewidths. time is hard coded and sensitivity of the TPS is hard coded.

The guys who control MS want a product that will work for everyone and it has become a huge hard to understand system. SDS gives you a simple functional system with no apologies.

Mark is right about apples and oranges and it starts with the philosophy applied to the product and the mames chosen. MS is Mega, SDS is simple

Dave

[Jake Raby]

I believe that most of the things that MS uses as "advantages" are actually disadvantages.

They give more parameters to set up and that gives more parameters to "screw up".

The advantage that no one can appreciate until they have to use it is SDS's tech support that is absolutely unparalleled. Sure with MS you have a few guys that really know it online, but seldom will you get a phone call with the guy that built the system and have him sit on the phone with you for as long as needed to work through ANY issue.

Simplicity and support for my customers are the two main reasons why I exclusively use SDS. I need to know that if a customer has an FI related issue that I can't assist with that they can get accurate, prompt and kind service from the guys who built the unit and SDS has never failed me. I have engines running SDS on 6 Continents for a very good reason. ALL of my personal cars run SDS for that same reason.

I'll soon be firing up a 750 HP TIV engine and it'll be managed by SDS, and I'll leave the Autronic system I have on the shelf.

As a seasoned tuner that can smell a rich/ lean engine 50 yards away I don't trust MS for anything more than a science project. Soome people have had success with it and an equal number have had failures (most of which they don't post about publicly, but email me about when they pick up the pieces) when using the system on an aircooled engine.

Our engines are particular compared to a Chevy or rice burning water pumper.

Yes, I do have a biased opinion as I feel that experimentation isn't for the consumer.

[Mark Henry]

Yep we could argue this till blue in the face, nothing new, audotronic, motec, etc. owners would tell us all that both systems are junk.

For me what is being replaced...a carb and a dizzy. Two very simple systems...then why do you need something over the top complicated?
As an AC VW engine builder (soon to retire, different story) I want something that does the job very well and is simple.
For the most part I don't trust a customer to zip up his own fly without getting his beans caught and I'm going to trust him with a complex system??? Take the blame if (and loss of money, time, etc) if he fuchs up .....not.

I was one of the first persons (if not the first) on this board to go SDS, don't care if your system has more bells.
I'm not looking back.
I'm also done.

[JmuRiz]

From what I've read here is sounds like SDS is the way to go. I'd love to set my 914 AND my Benz to run SDS (just need to take the leap I guess...and find out how to convert the Benz to FI).

It will only work on the Benz if it's gas, but if it's a crankfire SDS system the Benz will be easier to do than the T4.

Yep, my car is a gasser...a 280C with a bad carb and points ignition. I think a crankfire SDS and finding someone to make me a throttle body setup for the carb replacement would be sweet.