Thinking of adding a 912 to the fold, any recommendations? Options

[McMark]

There seems to be a lot of misinformation going on about putting a TYpe IV in a 912. I put a 914 engine in my girlfriends '69 912 and she drives it to work every day. I don't know if the gearing in a stock 912 901 transmission is optimal, but it definatly works really well with the inches-from-death, worn-out, 50-psi-per-cylinder-compresion motor that's in there. I'll be able to tell if the gearing sucks after the 2056 goes in in a couple of months.

To be clear: the 912s came with a 901 stock. You do not use a 914 tranny in the car. You will not have 5 reverse gears. You do not have to do anything to the tranny.

All you do to put a Type IV in a 912 is:

Step 1: Remove stock engine.
Step 2: Install stock 914 engine.

DONE!

[Dave_Darling]

The 912E used a special version of the 915 gearbox that had a 901 input shaft. I believe it also had unique engine tin. It might have been as simple as Bus tin with 2.0 914 spark plug holes, but it may have been more specialized.

912E-specific parts are rare and $$ in general, since they only made 2099 of them. Some FI parts, exhaust, transmission, engine tin, tranny mounts, etc.

I don't like the E, frankly. The mid-year 911s were galvanized (yay!) but I feel are too heavy. The early 911 chassis can really scoot with with the 90 HP 912 engine under it, while the stock 912E feels much less zippy.

I prefer the SWB (63-68) 911s and 912s; I think the "stance" is better than the later ones. But that is just a "looks" thing. I would be surprised if the rearward weight bias of the 69 911 were better than that of the 68 912--the four-cylinder engine is significantly lighter than the six.

An SWB 912 with a warmed-over 2.2 Type IV would be a very niftly little car! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) An upright cooling conversion would help keep the weight lower, and would move the CG forward a bit which is also nice.

--DD

[swood]

First of all, that damn burger turns my stomach. I had a Tommy burger with chili yesterday, and that's all I can taste. Every time I burb I want to puke. Purge...purge...purge...I digress...


Since I'm speaking out of ignorance, youre saying that both the early and late model 912's use a different tranny than the 914? and that they are sufficient for a stock 914, but you're not sure about a bigger T4?

[McMark]

63-69 912s came with an identical version of the 914 tranny in the bellhousing and inputshaft area. The 76 912E came with a modified, one-year only 915 tranny.

All 912s will take a Type IV engine without any tranny modifications. The tranny internals (gears) are nearly identical to the 914 engine (I'm not sure the ratios are the same) so the tranny is good for 150-200 hp, just like a 914 tranny. You can put a BIG 4 in a 912.

[914ghost]

Since the 914 901 tranny is backwards, doesnt that mean the ring gear is on the other side of the pinion?
I know the engines rotate the same direction and the tranny housing is pretty similar (if not the same).
I don't know if flipping the ring gear around is possible.
Also, what does 'gearing' as far as the tranny goes have to do with the actual engine? The idea is the wheel turns once for a certain number of turns of the input shaft, each gear having a different "ratio" of wheel to input shaft turns. Eh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
I drove an experimental 912 w/ an electric engine once. Strange, quiet, gutless, but it drove.
The only real solution is a 912 w/ a 914 tranny and a corvair engine adapted to it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif)
Robert O

[Tom Perso]

Let me stand corrected. 912's did come with 901s, which a 914 T4 WILL bolt up to, just some tin adjustment needs to be made.

My friends car has the odd-ball 4-speed transmission so thats why a 914 901 box (with the flipped R/P) is going into it.

The 912E had a 923 transmission, it's a hybrid 915 with the 901 style inut shaft (so it works with the T4 Porsche 914 style flywheel.

There.

Tom

[McMark]

I'll specify further:

If you have a 912 with a 5 speed transmission in it, leave the transmission in place and bolt the Type IV to it. DONE.

The transmission doesn't change!

If you have the 4 speed version then there might be more of a problem. I'll research that, but I'm pretty sure it's the same story.

[Gumby912]

Converting an early 912 to type 4 power is as easy as has been said. But you need to determine if that's why you are buying the car to begin with. Early 912's and even 912E's are starting to increase in value. Converting an early one to type 4 value may hurt it's future value. I purchased my 67 912 without and engine and did a type 4 conversion. If you are planning on using a 2.0 914 engine, the 912E sheetmetal will fit perfectly. You will only need to create an engine support mount, carb linkage, re-gear the trans, and fabricate an exhaust. I am using VW 411/412 heat exchangers just like the ones shown earlier in this thread (not as pretty as those!). I modified a 912E Bursch exhaust to fit these. I salvaged the gear set from an early 914 tail shifter and rebuilt my transmission with them. Pretty simple job and made a world of difference. Otherwise, you will have the wrong gears to match your type 4's torque curve and will run hot on the freeway at 80-90 mph. Not to mention lousy gas mileage. Once I regeared, I now pull around 36 mpg on the freeway running 80-90 mph with plenty of power.

On prices, if you choose to get an early 912 and want to keep the stock motor, parts are getting harder to find. Average rebuild cost is ~$5k for stock. I know someone who just had a "hot-rod" 912 engine built for $7k and it is about 115-125hp range. $7k on a type 4 will get you alot more hp than that!

912E's have always gotten a bad rap. They are basically a 76 911 S with the 914's 2.0 Type 4, and the 1.8's "L-Jet" fi. I have a friend who owns a 76 912E with well over 200,000 miles on the stock motor. I helped him do a tuneup a few weeks ago and we did a compression check. All 4 cyls were between 150-155 psi!! No, they are not hotrods but when the suspension is setup properly, they can give 911's and 914's a serious run in the autocrosses.

Just my $.02 worth. But don't ask me, I have both (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

--Tony
67 912 2.0 Type 4 "Gumby"
72 914 1.7

[Zeke]

Well, so far, only Dave D and myself have acknowledged the rarity of sheet metal for a T-IV into an early 912. Someone else says 'cake.'

At least it's something to look in to.

No one has mentioned the sideshift vs. tailshift with respect to using the 901 out of a 914. I'm sure it can be done, but with the tailshift. The 911/912 is a 'tailshift' turned around.

I don't know about gear flipping, but I remember reading of transplant motors that turned the other way. To compensate, they flipped the ring gear.

Obviously, a complete car is the way to go. But, Woods is looking at utilizing his resources to put together a family car, not spend a fortune, me thinks.

912 rollers are going cheap as of yet around here.

[swood]

Hey Zeke. I'm just stirring it up to see if the issue becomes clearer. I've never driven one, but think they're pretty cool. I just can't deal with the cost of a /6. But maybe the answer is to wait until I can. And get one that has the "legendary" (sic) longevity. The '76's are cool with a 2.0 in em. But I wonder about that single year tranny. But I'd take a early '12 if I could later upgrade to a bigger /4. I know the early stock motors have the suckage factor.

I'm glad though to read what everyone posted. Good food for thought. Thanks.

I'd like to cruise one if they're are any nearby. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

I prefer the SWB (63-68) 911s and 912s

Anybody got any pictures of those elusive 63, 64 or 65 911's and 912's? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif)

Are we counting Paris 901 prototypes as model years now?

[McMark]

Yes, the tin is one of the 3 or 4 issues that must be dealt with to put a Type IV into a 912.

Zeke, why do you insist on putting a 914 transmission into a 912? It's not necessary!

[Britain Smith]

I actually have a set of that "rare" 912E sheetmetal. I might not need it and might want to sell it. It was actually quite difficult to find a complete set...I had to find misc. pieces here and there.

-Britain

[ArtechnikA]

4500 for a nice E would be a smoking deal up here. they seem to command a high premium. they are galvanized, correct?

i see a lot of sellers try to price them like they're gold "rare - only produced one year..." there's a REASON they were only produced one year !

they were I-series cars and used the Thyssen steel.

they used a type of 915 transmission with a modified bellhousing.

[ArtechnikA]

I prefer the SWB (63-68) 911s and 912s

Anybody got any pictures of those elusive 63, 64 or 65 911's and 912's?

i had a '65 912. Euro model. they had them there a year before they arrived here in North America.

i have pictures, but all they show is yet another rusty early 900 car with dead paint.

[maf914]

Tom,

Thanks for posting the photos of G's car. I followed his project when he was posting on the Type4rum last year.

I'm curious about his engine/fan shroud and exhaust system finish. As I recall, he polished, painted and clear coated the engine/shroud and Por 20 coated the exhaust. How are these finishes holding up?

Mike

[Eric_Shea]

i had a '65 912. Euro model

I had a 911 "made in 65" but here they called it a 66. I was just thinking that if this chap is out there "Thinking of adding a 912 to the fold" then we might want to help him out by keeping it relevant to model years they actually built the cars. But hey... good point Rich; there might be 2 or 3, 65 Euro 912's floating around out there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

BTW... PM me if you're seriously looking to buy a 912. I know of a one family car that is for sale in NM. I will be going there in a couple of weeks for a PCA Zone meeting and I can do a pre-purchase inspection. It is currently not advertised.

[Tom Perso]

Tom,

Thanks for posting the photos of G's car. I followed his project when he was posting on the Type4rum last year.

I'm curious about his engine/fan shroud and exhaust system finish. As I recall, he polished, painted and clear coated the engine/shroud and Por 20 coated the exhaust. How are these finishes holding up?

Mike

The finish is holding up OK, but the mag. fan shroud gives up it's shine pretty quick. Wasn't really worth the effort.

Ok, for tin...

Use 914 tin. At the rear of the engine, you use the 912 motor tin with a little adjustment. This setup allows the 356 motor to be put right back into the car without any changing over. This WILL NOT devalue the car in any way (as long as you keep the 356 motor).

This was an easy conversion and I'd recommend it to ANYONE with 912 (non-E).

Later
Tom