Novice DE / Track day questions Options

[GaroldShaffer]

I have never done any sort of track day / DE event before. I have two 914's at the moment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The 1970 Driver /Ax weapon and the NEW (old) FP racecar that will soon have a 2.4 /6 in it.

Both cars have 5 point belts, but if I understand the PCA rules my 70 driver / AX can't be used because 1) I don't have the stock three point belts and 2) I don't have the right seats according to them. I have the Lemans GTS seats in it. I am not interested in spending more $$ on "race seats" and I sure as heck don't see how the old style 3 point belts used in early 914's are better than my 5 point setup.

So to me the old racecar would be the right choice, yes? Well then the only problem I see is as a novice I must have and instructor ride with me, right? Kind of hard to do in a car made for only one person. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)



As I understand you must have X amount of time with and instructor before you are allowed to drive by your self? I like the 70 driver setup the way it is and really don't want to change it, but is that what I have to do?

Now I haven't called anyone about the PCA Rules yet, but I know a lot of you here have ran in these events so I thought I would ask here also.

The drvier /AX weapon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[Crazyhippy]

Every event i've been to, if the tech guys think it's safe, it flies.

They have the rules for CYA reasons. Maybe find out who the head tech guy for your region is, and ask him?

BJH

[drew365]

I don't know specifics of SCCA rules because I've never run with them yet, though I am a member. Why do you think you need the stock seat belts? Most clubs require a 5 or 6 pt system for track as long as it is not outdated. How often you have to change your belts is usually every 3 to 5 years. It's interesting that if a club allows stock belts, there is no requirement that they ever be changed.
As far as having only one seat in your track car, I would do my schooling and instructor requirements with the AX car and then bring in the track car.
Here's a bit of advice, please don't take it personal, if a guy is going to worry about the cost of harnesses and seat, then racing probably isn't a good choice of a hobby. The cost of racing safely and semi-competively is a constant out put of money. It's been said many times by many people: "Which part of Porsche racing sounded cheap to you?"

[Heeltoe914]

Here's a bit of advice, please don't take it personal, if a guy is going to worry about the cost of harnesses and seat, then racing probably isn't a good choice of a hobby. The cost of racing safely and semi-competively is a constant out put of money. It's been said many times by many people: "Which part of Porsche racing sounded cheap to you?"

I love this statement. So true, So true.

[DanT]

Garold,
what you have outlined is correct above.

with stock seats you can DE/TT with stock belts (3 points only) this is because the stock seat does not have slots from the seat manufacturer for the sub strap and the shoulder harnesses.
My advice to you would be to find some stockish 3 point belts for your streeter, go to a couple of events (what ever the number your region/zone requires) to get certified. Then switch to the racecar for the rest of the time.
I know it is a tough situation. But there are reasons at National for them. Actually many of the 5-6 point harness manufacturers are now stating in the installation instructions that you should have a race style seat to use the multipoint harnesses.
see below for the National minimum DE/TT standards with regard to seats/belts/harnesses. Remember these are only the minimum standards, your region/zone may elect to enact more stringent requirements.

National Standards.

2. Equal Restraints: Both student and instructor shall have the same
restraint system. All vehicles must be equipped with a properly
installed lap and shoulder restraint system.
3. Harness Systems: If the participant chooses to install a 5 or 6 point
driving harness ( four point systems are not safe and therefore not
allowed) several changes to the automobile must be made to create a
safe occupant restraint system. Harnesses must include a
antisubmarine strap and be mounted in an approved manner
consistent the manufacturer’s instructions. The Harness system must
be used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes
for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. All pieces of the restraint
system must be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s
instructions.
This means that a seat is required to have the proper routing holes for
the harness as supplied by the seat manufacturer for the shoulder and
anti-submarine straps. The shoulder straps should be mounted at 90
degrees to the axis of your spine or at most 40 degrees down from
horizontal. Because the addition of the harness system means that the
occupants are fastened upright in the vehicle, a properly padded roll
bar or roll cage is strongly encouraged to complete the SYSTEM. The
use of one without the other may result in an unsafe environment and
is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Due to UV degradation and wear the
harness webbing must be replaced every five years.

good luck.

[GaroldShaffer]

Here's a bit of advice, please don't take it personal, if a guy is going to worry about the cost of harnesses and seat, then racing probably isn't a good choice of a hobby. The cost of racing safely and semi-competively is a constant out put of money. It's been said many times by many people: "Which part of Porsche racing sounded cheap to you?"

First

Please read what I said again.

Its not a matter of $$, that is why I bought a FP RACECAR It was fine in 07 to run my DD/AX car in DE events with a harness bar & 5 point belts. I bought the Lemans seats because they have the slit in the bottom cushions for the subbelt and higher side bolsters to hold my fat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) in place when AXing. I added the harness bar last summer with intentions of going to DE events, but life got in the way and I never made it to one.

Now according to PCA rules that won't work for DE events in 08. So I can either buy yet another "racing seat" wit the holes up top for the belts to go thru, OR go back to the stock style 1970 three point belts. I don't have a problem with spending money, just ask my wife. and I guess I will buy a racing seat for DE events.

I don't know specifics of SCCA rules because I've never run with them yet, though I am a member. Why do you think you need the stock seat belts? Most clubs require a 5 or 6 pt system for track as long as it is not outdated. How often you have to change your belts is usually every 3 to 5 years. It's interesting that if a club allows stock belts, there is no requirement that they ever be changed.

Its not a SCCA thing, its a PCA thing! Actually for the money I could do a SCCA drivers school and get my novice permit for the costs of new seats for the DD/AX car.

[DanT]

for DE you will have to have equivalent seats and restraints for driver and instructor.
both sides stock seats with 3 points, or both sides race seats and 5-6 point harnesses.
If the racecar has a raceseat in it now. find another race seat and install them in the AX car until you get certified. You might even be able to borrow a seat from someone for two events....then back to the race car.

I know the new rule is a bummer, but it is what we have to deal with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[GaroldShaffer]

Thanks Dan. For now I will look for some 3 point early stock belts and use them when I attend DE events.

[drew365]

Sorry Garold, I didn't have an answer for your seat / harness delema, and your not wanting to buy a race seat stuck out on me. I ran the first year with a stock seat and 5 pt belts attached to a harness bar. As Dan said, rules change and we have to keep up with them. I might have some stock belts in my stash, I'll look, you can have them if I do. You might keep in mind that it's possible an instructor will refuse to run on the track with stock setup. I had one refuse to go with 4 pt belts I had on the passenger side at the time, so I had to scramble to get the sub strap installed to save the weekend. Oh, could you put down the chair now?

[GaroldShaffer]

Sorry Garold, I didn't have an answer for your seat / harness delema, and your not wanting to buy a race seat stuck out on me. I ran the first year with a stock seat and 5 pt belts attached to a harness bar. As Dan said, rules change and we have to keep up with them. I might have some stock belts in my stash, I'll look, you can have them if I do. You might keep in mind that it's possible an instructor will refuse to run on the track with stock setup. I had one refuse to go with 4 pt belts I had on the passenger side at the time, so I had to scramble to get the sub strap installed to save the weekend. Oh, could you put down the chair now?

Thanks Drew. I am going to talk with my local PCA guys running our DE events and see what they say before I swap out to old belts. Just found out there is a member with a few extra seats so maybe I could pick them up cheap or borrow them for DE events?

[Racer]

An issue here is "x" number of events to be signed off. That can be quite a variable depending on your current skill level. It could be 3 events.. it could be 10 events.. it comes down to how well "you" impress your instructors with ability and awareness. Its not just "ive done 3 events, so I should be signed off".

Yes, safety rules keep changing in PCA. I imagine in a couple of years there will be more of the Club Race safety rules pushed down on DE participants.. perhaps not "newbies" but "solo level" drivers.

Curious - in the "old" days, I had a harness bar that came out and said - it is a guide bar only.. not a mounting point for harnesses. Has this changed over the years or do people simply assume the bar is safe to mount the harnesses to?

I sucked up and spent some money on new race seats and 6point harnesses for this season. Can't believe how well I stay put in the car now. Plus, I don't need my left leg to brace me still in the seat, so I can now try and start to left foot brake (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[mudfoot76]

An issue here is "x" number of events to be signed off. That can be quite a variable depending on your current skill level. It could be 3 events.. it could be 10 events.. it comes down to how well "you" impress your instructors with ability and awareness. Its not just "ive done 3 events, so I should be signed off".

It also depends on which organization(s) you drive with and if those groups talk to each other. I am no longer required to have an instructor when I run with my home PCA region, but if I drive with any of the neighboring chapters I am required to have one. So you are going to be best off by biting the bullet and installing equal seats and harnesses for now.

I can't imagine that you'll only ever want to drive with your home region at the 'home' track (Gingerman?). Blackhawk, Putnam Park, Mid-Ohio are all within an easy distance. The race car has a proper roll cage so you'd be clear for Elkhart Lake too...

[TravisNeff]

Since your Le Mans seat came with the slot for the sub strap (manufactured that way), is the only issue the shoulders of the seat do not have provisions for the shoulder restraints?

If so, www.classiccarseats.com, they have an aluminum plate you can add to your seat for shoulder strap management. http://www.classiccarseats.com/trips-harness.php

[GaroldShaffer]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) Hmmmm

I wonder if that would pass with PCA guys?

[mudfoot76]

If so, www.classiccarseats.com, they have an aluminum plate you can add to your seat for shoulder strap management. http://www.classiccarseats.com/trips-harness.php

I highly doubt that will pass scrutineering. PCA rules clearly state that the seat has to have the routing holes as part of the factory design. YMMV, but I wouldn't chance it.

[jcd914]

If so, www.classiccarseats.com, they have an aluminum plate you can add to your seat for shoulder strap management. http://www.classiccarseats.com/trips-harness.php

I highly doubt that will pass scrutineering. PCA rules clearly state that the seat has to have the routing holes as part of the factory design. YMMV, but I wouldn't chance it.

It seems to me PCA would have to accept these. Classics Car Seats is the seat manufacture and this piece they are selling was designed specifically for their seats to guide the shoulder harnesses. Just because it is a separate piece that can be removed should not be cause to disallow it.Harness bars are removable guides and they are still allowed as a guide (not as a mount).

Of course PCA will get the last word.

Jim

[dinomium]

seatbelts, helmets and fire suppression are things that when needed, they are REALLY needed!
I would not put my life, let alone somebody riding along with me at risk for saving a few dollars.
My two cents...

[GaroldShaffer]

seatbelts, helmets and fire suppression are things that when needed, they are REALLY needed!
I would not put my life, let alone somebody riding along with me at risk for saving a few dollars.
My two cents...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I'm not sure I follow what you mean? I'm not looking to risk anyones life. My track car is just that a track car with all the safety equipment needed to meet SCCA regs. My AX / driver car is just that, a AX / driver car. I have good quality seats with a 5 point harness properly mounted. The only issue is the Lemans seats don't come "stock" with shoulder harness guides, hence the harness bar that is installed, but they are made for the sub belt to come through the bottom seat cushion.

Now PCA is telling me that is not safe, but my 1970 914 with stock seats and the stock non retracting seat belts is more safe than my current setup? I say (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)

So my options are:

1) buy and install "New" (to me anyways) racing seats in my AX/ Drvier car.

2) install old stock sets and belts (that's NOT going to happen)

3) Take all the money I would spend on seats for the AX car, X amount of DE/Track day entry fees I would need to be certified to drive on track myself by PCA and use it to attend an SCCA double drivers school and get my novice roading racing license, in my purpose built racecar. I would then race in local SCCA regional road races and get my full compitetion license.

By doing option #3 I would then be able to race in PCA, SCCA, Vintage, MWC, .... So the plan is for option #3. Once I get my compitetion license I will do track days for the seat time and focus I think, running with the vintage gang.

YMMV (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[brant]

Garold,

even with option #3, pca club racing isn't going to let you run without a seat that has belt guides.

their rule is really not created to cause you problems.
its a safety rule
the guides save your butt in a wreck.

yes driver ed will let you run with stock seats in a very slow class at slow speeds.

a 3 point stock belt will not slip from your shoulder

but a 4/5 point belt without guides can slip from your shoulder

so the rule is to literally save your neck.

I think safety rules are created to save the life of the person who doesn't already inherently want to protect themself.

seriously.. buy a safe seat
don't "wish" you had spent $250.00 later, while your dealing with a $100K
doctor bill. Don't be the reason that more rules are required to force people to think about being safe.

[GaroldShaffer]

Sorry if I am not clear.

My plan all along is to use the racecar for any type of track stuff. The issue with doing that is it is only setup for one seat. I would have to cut the cage and re-route oil lines, fire stuff.... you get the idea in order to mount another seat for an instructor.

That is why I was thinking (for a while) that the AX/Driver car could be used for driver ed stuff, but reading the PCA rules my setup in that car doesn't meet their standards anymore (Lemans GTS seats with opening for subbelt, 5 point harness and harness bar). That is fine with me. I will just hold off attending DE events untill I can get my compitetion license and run in some regional road races.

So I guess it is somewhat about money. Not that I don't want to spend it, I just rather spend it on my Racecar not the AX / driver.