Which would you choose?, Subie w/325 hp or 2.8 massive IV with 225 hp Options

[hot_shoe914]

Okay I have come to a point where I am in a delima. I have a '73 2.0 car with the appearance group package that has had all 911 suspension upgrades and I will also be adding GT flares. I was originally going to put a 2.8 IV in it with about 225 horses but now am considering a subie engine putting out about 325 horses or more. I have always been a purist but there is something to be said for smoking the competion through the curves and also being able to dust the muscle cars down the highways. I can get into the 2.8 for around 7000.00 for motor and tranny minus installation. I can get into the subie for about 4800.00 minus installation.

What are the thoughts and opinions out there along with the pros and cons for each. All input would be greatly appreciated.



Donald

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I would love to see Jake start putting some RnD into the early 911 motors.

Nope.. Thats no fun at all.

When I chose to move forward with engine development, my engine of choice was the Boxster/996 and 997. They are unknown, have tons of issues and offer the challenges needed to keep me from getting bored.

Here is my cross post from this thread on the "other" site
First off:
The 2.8 TIV will cost more than 7K. The engine KIT to assemble it with is around 7K, but that doesn't include induction, 2K+ for exhaust or the ignition system. This engine and its support package is a 12-13K expenditure, doing it any cheaper would mean cutting corners.

The Subie engine will compromise the car. It takes the 914 character away and when the radiator is installed its just another Fiero, or maybe a Boxster.. If you are going to do all that and spend all that, just sell the 914 to someone who will keep it as Porsche intended without irreversible changes made and then just buy a Boxster. You can get 325HP with our Boxster Turbo kit and some cool upgrades...

Most of my customers never even consider doing a water cooled conversion. They are hardcore aircooled and will spend the extra money initially to keep their car aircooled. Its your car and your choice...

As the 914 gains value, yours will not.. BUT if you don't plan on selling it and don't care about getting dissed by people at Porsche or VW events go ahead and bolt that rice burner in!

Raby makes good motors, but you can build a cheaper version, that is just as good

I beg to differ. Plenty of people have that mis-conception and end up learning that they were incorrect. This usually occurs about the time that they have spent more money than my kit and still have components colliding with each other inside the engine. About then they realize that they should have bought the kit.

That happens dozens of times per year.

Others can sell you some parts, but they can't parallel my engine design or the R&D that has been expended to create these designs. They also can't parallel our support during assembly and most importantly they can't sell you LE heads and RAT components.

There are many ways to make a TIV bigger and faster, but only one way to make it MassIVe.

[r_towle]

I would love to see Jake start putting some RnD into the early 911 motors.

Nope.. Thats no fun at all.

When I chose to move forward with engine development, my engine of choice was the Boxster/996 and 997. They are unknown, have tons of issues and offer the challenges needed to keep me from getting bored.

Here is my cross post from this thread on the "other" site
First off:
The 2.8 TIV will cost more than 7K. The engine KIT to assemble it with is around 7K, but that doesn't include induction, 2K+ for exhaust or the ignition system. This engine and its support package is a 12-13K expenditure, doing it any cheaper would mean cutting corners.

The Subie engine will compromise the car. It takes the 914 character away and when the radiator is installed its just another Fiero, or maybe a Boxster.. If you are going to do all that and spend all that, just sell the 914 to someone who will keep it as Porsche intended without irreversible changes made and then just buy a Boxster. You can get 325HP with our Boxster Turbo kit and some cool upgrades...

Most of my customers never even consider doing a water cooled conversion. They are hardcore aircooled and will spend the extra money initially to keep their car aircooled. Its your car and your choice...

As the 914 gains value, yours will not.. BUT if you don't plan on selling it and don't care about getting dissed by people at Porsche or VW events go ahead and bolt that rice burner in!

Raby makes good motors, but you can build a cheaper version, that is just as good

I beg to differ. Plenty of people have that mis-conception and end up learning that they were incorrect. This usually occurs about the time that they have spent more money than my kit and still have components colliding with each other inside the engine. About then they realize that they should have bought the kit.

That happens dozens of times per year.

Others can sell you some parts, but they can't parallel my engine design or the R&D that has been expended to create these designs. They also can't parallel our support during assembly and most importantly they can't sell you LE heads and RAT components.

There are many ways to make a TIV bigger and faster, but only one way to make it MassIVe.

THAT is the way to say it....well said .

Rich

[ericread]

As an older guy, I really prefer a 914 that is as unmolested as possible, but the choice is a fun one to make.

My only thought is that a 200+ HP Raby engine is going to provide you with a 914 as it was designed. It should be scary quick and fast, without compromising the integrity of the tub (body).

A Subi conversion will not only involve cutting the body, but at 300+ HP, I imaginge you will have to reinforce the tub in a number of places. IMHO, the 914 was never designed to take the stresses of a 300+hp powerplant, and I would imaging the stresses would torque the body pretty hard.

So if you decide to convert to a Subi, you should probably plan to make upgrades in the body reinforcement, suspension, braking and obviously, cooling.

Seems like a lot more work (and money) you may not have included in your budget.

Eric Read

[DBCooper]

The 2.8 TIV will cost more than 7K. The engine KIT to assemble it with is around 7K, but that doesn't include induction, 2K+ for exhaust or the ignition system. This engine and its support package is a 12-13K expenditure, doing it any cheaper would mean cutting corners.

OK, in other words your big four will cost two or three times the cost of a Subaru conversion, for 100 less horsepower. Is that right?

The Subie engine will compromise the car. It takes the 914 character away and when the radiator is installed its just another Fiero, or maybe a Boxster.. If you are going to do all that and spend all that, just sell the 914 to someone who will keep it as Porsche intended without irreversible changes made and then just buy a Boxster. You can get 325HP with our Boxster Turbo kit and some cool upgrades...

That's just salesman's talk, Jake. What you end up with doesn't look like a Fiero or a Boxter, but a 914. A NARP with a LOT of horsepower. And there are no "irreversible" changes needed to put in a water cooled motor. Simply save the sheet metal pieces cut out for the radiator inlet and outlets, and if you ever want to convert it back to aircooled just weld them back in. Done and dusted. Doing that is no different than very simple rust repair, so it's certainly not "irreversible" and not even that expensive. It would be ten times more difficult and expensive to remove flairs from a car, trailing arm reinforcements, an inner long kit, but nobody ever does that, either.

As the 914 gains value, yours will not.. BUT if you don't plan on selling it and don't care about getting dissed by people at Porsche or VW events go ahead and bolt that rice burner in!

Again, just salesman's talk. The fact is that no modified car of any make will retain value as well as an unused and untouched original, but if anyone is considering a big motor it's because they want to have FUN with their car, not leave it under glass so others can admire. If you want a concours car you can't make any changes anyway, and that includes the beefed up suspension and brakes that even your 200 hp engine will require, or a Porsche six. But of course you can always remove whatever brakes, suspension, engine, water cooled components, if you want, so it's not true that anything is ever really "ruined", with any of those engines. That's IF you want to remove them and put the 1.8 back in, but no one ever does.

And about respect, there's a reason the term NARP is used around here. In Europe these cars were called VW/Porsches, so with that VW 411 engine you're going to be dissed by some people at Porsche events anyway. But consider the source and thank the jerks for identifying themselves so you don't have to waste any of your time with them. Spend your time with people who understand where you're coming from. And forgive me, but I've seen exactly the opposite of what you say about Subarui engines in VW's. They attract enormous attention at VW shows. And respect, too. Why? It's obvious. 300 horsepower that you can drive everyday on the street, without any special attention, without needing to even adjust valves? You've just hit on what any hard-core VW guy dreams of, a gently brutal giant killer. And that includes the Porsche/VW guys.

If VW and/or Porsche were still making these cars today, had been evolving them this whole time, they'd be putting in water cooled engines very similar to the Subaru engine anyway. And isn't that why we do most of the modifications to our cars anyway, because there's a better way than when the factory did it forty years ago? Isn't that why you're modifying T4 motors?

I agree totally that you should do what you want with your car. Period, end of sentence. But please, no need to exaggerate. You have good products, they can stand on their own. If people are asking questions to make decisions they need facts, not exaggeration and hyperbole.

[TeenerTim]

The only water in a 914 should be in the window washer bottle.
Jake's motor will fit right in with no mods at all. The suby will force you to cut up your car and it will take a lot time and money to do it.

[dw914er]

Jake, I was refering to Steve (i think his profile name is sww914) and he built his massive type IV, and thats a fast car. My buddy hershel also has a massive type IV, and I think he also built his, and that's a fast car too.

They knew what they were doing to build it, and knew how to get the results they wanted. IM not bagging on your business or anything (I don't know how to build monster type IV, so maybe in a few years I might call you for a new R2R motor), but you are not the only option when it comes to type IV

[SirAndy]

Which would you choose? Subie w/325 hp or 2.8 massive IV with 225 hp

neither ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Andy

[Jake Raby]

those may be fast cars that have well built engines, but unless it has a RAT serial number is can't be MassIVe... Lots of knockoffs have spawned as the evolution of my program has gone to the more advanced levels.

[toon1]

I was is this posistion also. Not for the reason of massive power but for the reason of an engine rebuild/swap.

I decided to go with the TIV. NOT for purist reasons. I just wanted to see if I could build a nice running TIV.

The challenges I faced where frustrating and rewarding. The expenses I encoured where more than I thought.

I also wanted a nice DD that was good on fuel. That being said, and hinde site being 20/20, I think I should have gone with the subi.

The subi offers a little more for what I wanted out of MY car.

There are things that can be done with the Subi. that you just cannot do with the TIV. The subi . offeres about 110HP in the 1.8 with no mods.

There are places I want to take the car that with a subie I would not have to think about it, with the TIV I would think twice.

I am alway's worried about head temps with the TIV and sometimes alter my route to avoid potential areas that might cause issues. No matter how well the engine is tuned, there is always that long hill in a head wind that you will encounter that will create heat issues there is just no way around it


In the end, It's all about what YOU want and what YOU are happy with.

P.S.- if the 914 was produced today( ummm boxster) it WOULD be water cooled.

IMHO, WC engines are just better and more reliable ( no offense to anyone)

[zymurgist]

those may be fast cars that have well built engines, but unless it has a RAT serial number is can't be MassIVe... Lots of knockoffs have spawned as the evolution of my program has gone to the more advanced levels.

Does that apply only engines that you assemble, or also to the kits you sell for people to assemble themselves? I seem to recall one of your posts stating that a customer could save a lot of money by assembling one of your kits rather than paying for your time to assemble the engine.

[PeeGreen 914]

I was is this posistion also. Not for the reason of massive power but for the reason of an engine rebuild/swap.

I decided to go with the TIV. NOT for purist reasons. I just wanted to see if I could build a nice running TIV.

The challenges I faced where frustrating and rewarding. The expenses I encoured where more than I thought.

I also wanted a nice DD that was good on fuel. That being said, and hinde site being 20/20, I think I should have gone with the subi.

The subi offers a little more for what I wanted out of MY car.

There are things that can be done with the Subi. that you just cannot do with the TIV. The subi . offeres about 110HP in the 1.8 with no mods.

There are places I want to take the car that with a subie I would not have to think about it, with the TIV I would think twice.

I am alway's worried about head temps with the TIV and sometimes alter my route to avoid potential areas that might cause issues. No matter how well the engine is tuned, there is always that long hill in a head wind that you will encounter that will create heat issues there is just no way around it


In the end, It's all about what YOU want and what YOU are happy with.

P.S.- if the 914 was produced today( ummm boxster) it WOULD be water cooled.

IMHO, WC engines are just better and more reliable ( no offense to anyone)

How can that be true? 911s are rather reliable. Porsche didn't go to water cooled because they felt it would be more reliable (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) And to say that if a 914 was made today it would be water cooled is like saying if they made the 911 today it would be water cooled (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[PeeGreen 914]

Which would you choose? Subie w/325 hp or 2.8 massive IV with 225 hp

neither ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Andy

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[toon1]

I was is this posistion also. Not for the reason of massive power but for the reason of an engine rebuild/swap.

I decided to go with the TIV. NOT for purist reasons. I just wanted to see if I could build a nice running TIV.

The challenges I faced where frustrating and rewarding. The expenses I encoured where more than I thought.

I also wanted a nice DD that was good on fuel. That being said, and hinde site being 20/20, I think I should have gone with the subi.

The subi offers a little more for what I wanted out of MY car.

There are things that can be done with the Subi. that you just cannot do with the TIV. The subi . offeres about 110HP in the 1.8 with no mods.

There are places I want to take the car that with a subie I would not have to think about it, with the TIV I would think twice.

I am alway's worried about head temps with the TIV and sometimes alter my route to avoid potential areas that might cause issues. No matter how well the engine is tuned, there is always that long hill in a head wind that you will encounter that will create heat issues there is just no way around it


In the end, It's all about what YOU want and what YOU are happy with.

P.S.- if the 914 was produced today( ummm boxster) it WOULD be water cooled.

IMHO, WC engines are just better and more reliable ( no offense to anyone)

How can that be true? 911s are rather reliable. Porsche didn't go to water cooled because they felt it would be more reliable (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) And to say that if a 914 was made today it would be water cooled is like saying if they made the 911 today it would be water cooled (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I never said AC engines where NOT reliable, they are to a point. I said "IMHO WC engines are MORE relaible". I do know for a fact, ( as I stated above) there are times I will avoid taking my 914 certain places due to the fact I am usure about how the engine may handle it. Call me over cautious but I would sure hate to be stranded by an engine that dropped a valve seat because it couldn't climb a hill on hot day or any other day for that matter.

Is that a tuning thing? maybe!

Is that a maintenence prob.? maybe!

could it happen to a perfectly good running TIV? maybe!

It could also happen to a WC engine BUT there is more room for error and a WC engine gives the ability to have that margine of error.

Hence makes them MORE reliable, MORE forgiving and MORE user freindly.

I HAVE and AC engine. I'm fairly happy with it but I have to work around it's parameters, sometimes I like it sometimes I don't. But for now that's what I have until it blows up and at that point it's decision time again. A Subi may be the way I go. It's all a matter of opinion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It's all good!

You will have to excuse my ignorance.

Why did Porsche start putting WC engines in their cars?

[PeeGreen 914]

more horse power. They felt they could create more efficient HP going water cooled.

Most of your reasoning behind your engine not being as trust worthy may be from it not being a fresh engine. If it is it and set up correctly it can withstand very high heat. Remember, 914s and 911s regularly beat water cooled cars in the 24 hour races. Now if you are pushing your engine to a higher compression or something like that it may be more unstable. However, a stock 914 or 911 engine is a very reliable engine and just as much as any water cooled engine.

[dw914er]

more horse power. They felt they could create more efficient HP going water cooled.

Most of your reasoning behind your engine not being as trust worthy may be from it not being a fresh engine. If it is it and set up correctly it can withstand very high heat. Remember, 914s and 911s regularly beat water cooled cars in the 24 hour races. Now if you are pushing your engine to a higher compression or something like that it may be more unstable. However, a stock 914 or 911 engine is a very reliable engine and just as much as any water cooled engine.

I think though that they are more temperature sensitive. My car runs pretty hot, especially during summer. The point is that it runs hotter when its being cooled by 110 degree weather, vs my water cooled RSX that the temp stays about the same anytime of the year

but i agree, they will run in either condition. Now, stopping the car, and getting vapor lock (havnt relocated fuel pump) is where the long roadtrips start to show some problems, but thats now an ac/wc problem

[toon1]

more horse power. They felt they could create more efficient HP going water cooled.

Most of your reasoning behind your engine not being as trust worthy may be from it not being a fresh engine. If it is it and set up correctly it can withstand very high heat. Remember, 914s and 911s regularly beat water cooled cars in the 24 hour races. Now if you are pushing your engine to a higher compression or something like that it may be more unstable. However, a stock 914 or 911 engine is a very reliable engine and just as much as any water cooled engine.

Doens't efficiancy breed reliability?

My engine IS fresh! it has about 3k on it. I am running 1.7 with MS, crank trigger, 8.2:1 comp. and a 9550 cam. I have ifinite adjustability over timing and AFR's. With all that, there are still heat related issues. Not all the time. Most the time, they are fine. Most of my driving is on flat terrain. BUT, in those instances where I have to cross a Mtn. pass the temps. climb to an uncomfortable level(390*, 13.5:1 afr, 25* timing). There are no ways of getting around it, it's just what they do. In my WC car, it's not that way.

The fact that, seemingly MOST of the topics related to these engines is try to COOL them say's it all. Everybody here with a AC engines go through great lengths to make sure they stay cool. I would venture to say it's the #1 killer of the ac engine.

Keith

[Jake Raby]

those may be fast cars that have well built engines, but unless it has a RAT serial number is can't be MassIVe... Lots of knockoffs have spawned as the evolution of my program has gone to the more advanced levels.

Does that apply only engines that you assemble, or also to the kits you sell for people to assemble themselves? I seem to recall one of your posts stating that a customer could save a lot of money by assembling one of your kits rather than paying for your time to assemble the engine.

My Turn Key engine program and my engine kit program share none of the same characteristics.. The engines built in the shop as "Turn Key" units are not based from our kit.

The kit engines are 2-3 years behind the development of their turn key counterparts as we use the experiences gathered from the design, testing and effectiveness of the base engines used in turn key customers cars to create the engine kits... Thats why it takes 2-3 years to chose the easiest to assemble, most effective base engines for the foundation of that "kit" engine.

Today in my Turn Key engine shop we are taking orders for twin plug TIV engines, roller cam and lifter equipped engines and even engines with forced induction that also use both the roller cam and twin plug technology all rolled into one package. I refer to these engines as "MassIVe Generation II".

The engine kit program was updated in January 2008 and will not change till mid year, 2010. These kits are derived from the turn key engines of the 2005-2007 era and use that technology and those engine combinations. This makes it simple to create an engine that we can forecast tuning for as well as know what it will attain for power, MPG and longevity.

These kits are easy to assemble engines that we can assist you in creating step by step. This can be done with only a 119 piece tool set by someone with ZERO previous experience! We actually prefer that kit assemblers have no prior experience and bad habits! Those are always the best builds.

The engine kit program is so far advanced that we now have assembly tool kits that can be purchased cheaply and used for engine assembly... Thats how well the program is refined.

If you base an engine off of one of my kits, it will be MassIVe, but it will always be a kit that you assembled yourself. The only way to make a TIV MassIVe is with one of my kits, or a complete engine package... Anything else is just a "Big 4".

[Todd Enlund]

more horse power. They felt they could create more efficient HP going water cooled.

And noise/emissions, IIRC...


As far as the reliability issues, if there is one place that I want a reliable engine, it is at 15,000 feet. The VAST majority of aero engines are aircooled.

Of course, they do have a bit of a cooling advantage over automotive engines... but the point remains.

[Jake Raby]

Aviation engines operate in cooler ambient temps...

As for watercooling... The switch was most impacted by emission control restrictions.. Just like at the exhaust system on a 993 engine to see the challenges the environmental restrictions placed on the last aircooled Porsche engines.

even today with all the Boxster and 996 developments we are doing, I still don't appreciate any watercooled Porsche... Developing watercooled Porsche engines has been a business endeavor for us only. (So I can reinvest more into aircooled development!)

[turboman808]

Never had a problem with overheating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)