Which would you choose?, Subie w/325 hp or 2.8 massive IV with 225 hp Options

[hot_shoe914]

Okay I have come to a point where I am in a delima. I have a '73 2.0 car with the appearance group package that has had all 911 suspension upgrades and I will also be adding GT flares. I was originally going to put a 2.8 IV in it with about 225 horses but now am considering a subie engine putting out about 325 horses or more. I have always been a purist but there is something to be said for smoking the competion through the curves and also being able to dust the muscle cars down the highways. I can get into the 2.8 for around 7000.00 for motor and tranny minus installation. I can get into the subie for about 4800.00 minus installation.

What are the thoughts and opinions out there along with the pros and cons for each. All input would be greatly appreciated.



Donald

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[zymurgist]

Why did Porsche start putting WC engines in their cars?

Didn't it have something to do with cooling issues for 4 valve heads? Porsche discovered on the 935 and 936 that they had to use water cooling for the heads because they were exceeding the thermal limits of the engine. (Bruce Anderson, Porsche 911 Performance Handbook)

[Jake Raby]

And the heads were hotter because of the restrictions imposed by emissions equipment...

[james2]

" it's hell being right all the time," (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

And the heads were hotter because of the restrictions imposed by emissions equipment...

[Zundfolge]

Seems to me if you plan on doing any racing, a Raby motor is the absolute best choice because of classes and such. Also the ease of installation would be a big factor to consider.

If you want better daily driver driveability, the Subie motor is a real good choice (IMNSHO the Subie motor makes a V8 conversion obsolete unless you're trying to build something like a 500hp+ supercar out of a 914).

If you want "authenticity" and have the money, a 911 motor is still the best way to go.

Only thing not to like about the Raby is the price (but I suspect you get what you pay for).

[grantsfo]

I think you will find that a 3.2 or 3.6 liter six can be done cost effectively and will run reliably with time proven consistency and output will be superior to any 2.8 T4 on crack.

I'm not a fan of big T4's regardless of the sales pitches. Funny thing is many of the T4 horor stories rarely make it to any of the boards, but hang around in 914 community long enough you hear/see all the issues and the money that gets thrown at making these motors work correctly. Then just as they are working poof! Something lets go.

If not a six then subie would be my second choice.

Best choice of all for a 914-4 owner that plans street and some AX is to just go with a nice 2056 and pass on the drag racing. Why not keep thae car as close to stock as possible to retain reliability that was engineered by true engineers rather than barn yard bandits.

[ericread]

I think you will find that a 3.2 or 3.6 liter six can be done cost effectively and will run reliably with time proven consistency and output will be superior to any 2.8 T4 on crack.

I'm not a fan of big T4's regardless of the sales pitches. Funny thing is many of the T4 horor stories rarely make it to any of the boards, but hang around in 914 community long enough you hear/see all the issues and the money that gets thrown at making these motors work correctly. Then just as they are working poof! Something lets go.

If not a six then subie would be my second choice.

Best choice of all for a 914-4 owner that plans street and some AX is to just go with a nice 2056 and pass on the drag racing. Why not keep thae car as close to stock as possible to retain reliability that was engineered by true engineers rather than barn yard bandits.

Blasphemy!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I'm not a fan of big T4's regardless of the sales pitches. Funny thing is many of the T4 horor stories rarely make it to any of the boards, but hang around in 914 community long enough you hear/see all the issues and the money that gets thrown at making these motors work correctly.

I'd bet that if YOU knew ANYTHING about them you'd certainly post them right here. Thats because you'll do anything possible to downplay what I create and the TIV- period. Any simple mistake I make is ammunition for a person such as yourself to use against me and the engines I create.

So if it really existed, why didn't YOU post it?

(And you wonder why I kicked your ass off my boards.)

Best choice of all for a 914-4 owner that plans street and some AX is to just go with a nice 2056 and pass on the drag racing. Why not keep thae car as close to stock as possible to retain reliability that was engineered by true engineers rather than barn yard bandits

So, you call me a "Barnyard Bandit"...

Have you ever designed an engine that made 52 HP per cylinder N/A and then standardized that assembly into a package that is able to be assembled by someone that has literally NEVER worked on an engine before??? Until you do you haven't been as effective as this "Barnyard Bandit".

Thats OK, Excellence Magazine will be in my "Barnyard" next week covering another of the developments that have sprouted from the seeds we started sowing 3 years ago. You'll rread about it in a couple of months in a few thousand words of detail. I wonder if Grant has ever had his work featured in such an article?

Here is a good pic to piss Grant off a little more.. This is a customer who I flew 2300 miles to see and repair his oil leak on his RAT Turn Key engine. He didn't have to ask me to do it. we pulled the engine in his garage and repaired the leak..

(IMG:http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/450392.jpg)

[Zundfolge]

Honestly I don't understand the Type IV hate.

If you want to compete against 4cyl 914s and be competitive, the best thing you can do is stuff a big bore Type IV in the car.

Upgrading to a 6, a Subie or a V8 puts you in the same class as dedicated track cars who are going to eat your lunch unless you dump a TON of cash into the car with the new motor, and reduce the drivability of the car on the street (if not make it an outright track only car).

As for Raby's Type IVs, the only people I hear complaining about them are people that haven't bought them.

[Jake Raby]

As for Raby's Type IVs, the only people I hear complaining about them are people that haven't bought them.

Imagine that..

And of course, Grant will always complain because he is Grant and is the ultimate "Jake Hater"..

But I love Grant.. Its guys like him that remind me how successful and effective myself and my program have been. If it is worth all that energy to hate me, I must really be getting on his nerves.

[james2]

You have not arrived until you get your own personal haters.....

I've been tryin', but no hate for me yet... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[rtalich]

You have not arrived until you get your own personal haters.....

I've been tryin', but no hate for me yet... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Try selling something on the classifieds for way cheaper than what they're worth... worked for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[grantsfo]

Hmmm seems to me that someone thinks they are only builder of "Big T4's". Sorry but I cant control your inflated ego. I wasn't referring to you Jake. Re-read my post if you like. No mention of you or Massive T4 's at all. Actually if I was inclined to build a big T4 you would be on the short list. Dude take a chill pill!

I own a T4 motor and I'm working on a project as we speak. I just dont think big bore T4's are cost effective or a viable motor for regular use when compared to many of the well proven alternatives. Plain and simple no emotion, no T4 or Jake hate. Get over it.

My opinions on big T4's have been confirmed by years of practical experience around these motors at the street and on the track. I was running big bore T4's in my 71 VW Bus when I was in high school in the 1970's Jake, Were you even born yet? Yes you have done tons to improve these motors with lots of help from great suppliers, but a reliable 2.8 T4 budget motor isnt what this person wants.

I dont hate these motors - I just see someone who wants 200 plus HP on a budget who wants some objective input. A Massive T4 is not the solution plain and simple.

[Jake Raby]

Hmmm seems to me that someone thinks they are only builder of "Big T4's". Sorry but I cant control your inflated ego. I wasn't referring to you Jake. Re-read my post if you like. No mention of you or Massive T4 's at all. Actually if I was inclined to build a big T4 you would be on the short list. Dude take a chill pill!

I own a T4 motor and I'm working on a project as we speak. I just dont think big bore T4's are cost effective or a viable motor for regular use when compared to many of the well proven alternatives. Plain and simple no emotion, no T4 or Jake hate. Get over it.

My opinions on big T4's have been confirmed by years of practical experience around these motors at the street and on the track. I was running big bore T4's in my 71 VW Bus when I was in high school in the 1970's Jake, Were you even born yet? Yes you have done tons to improve these motors with lots of help from great suppliers, but a reliable 2.8 T4 budget motor isnt what this person wants.

I dont hate these motors - I just see someone who wants 200 plus HP on a budget who wants some objective input. A Massive T4 is not the solution plain and simple.

Are you in politics? If you aren't perhaps you should be.

Gotta go. Gotta go work on a twin plug engine for a 550 Spyder.. It belongs to Herbie Blash

http://www.xserve2.com/gpe/cref-blaher.htm
Since December 1995 he has acted as the FIA's Deputy Race Director at all Grands Prix.

I wonder why he chose a 4 cylinder??
Oh well, he must be just another one of those brainwashed kool-aid drinking dumb asses.. I wonder why he chose a "Barnyard Bandit" to create the engine for him?? Looks like one of those FIA wrenchs could have handled his "VW Motor".

Instead it'll be getting shipped across the Atlantic.

[Chris Hamilton]

Hmmm seems to me that someone thinks they are only builder of "Big T4's". Sorry but I cant control your inflated ego. I wasn't referring to you Jake. Re-read my post if you like. No mention of you or Massive T4 's at all. Actually if I was inclined to build a big T4 you would be on the short list. Dude take a chill pill!

I own a T4 motor and I'm working on a project as we speak. I just dont think big bore T4's are cost effective or a viable motor for regular use when compared to many of the well proven alternatives. Plain and simple no emotion, no T4 or Jake hate. Get over it.

My opinions on big T4's have been confirmed by years of practical experience around these motors at the street and on the track. I was running big bore T4's in my 71 VW Bus when I was in high school in the 1970's Jake, Were you even born yet? Yes you have done tons to improve these motors with lots of help from great suppliers, but a reliable 2.8 T4 budget motor isnt what this person wants.

I dont hate these motors - I just see someone who wants 200 plus HP on a budget who wants some objective input. A Massive T4 is not the solution plain and simple.

I think the real question comes when you ask, when is it still a type IV, and when is it something else?

How much less originality is present with a chopped up and modified to hell engine, versus just replacing it with something else similar? Where do you draw the line?

Do I still have a type IV when I've cut large amounts out of the case to fit my huge cylinders? How about if I weld up the heads to move the exhaust ports? What if I replace the heads entirely with aftermarket ones?

If you follow this road to it's logical conclusion, you end up at http://www.pauter.com, making over 900 horsepower for drag racing 4-cylinder cars.

Their shit is expensive, but it's only money right? You'll always make more.

[james2]

That's the way i look at, the government is busy making more money all the time. The supply of Massive type 4s are limited. better get one now while the waiting list is short. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I think the real question comes when you ask, when is it still a type IV, and when is it something else?

Thats why we have been referring to our engines for years as "MassIVe 4s"

How much less originality is present with a chopped up and modified to hell engine, versus just replacing it with something else similar? Where do you draw the line?

A Subaru isn't similar. A Porsche 6 cylinder only shares it's cooling medium and the fact that it is horizontally opposed with the "MassIVe 4" or the Type 4.

Do I still have a type IV when I've cut large amounts out of the case to fit my huge cylinders?

Thats why we don't do that. Most all our engines make their power with a 96mm bore that slides right into the stock, non machined case.

How about if I weld up the heads to move the exhaust ports

We don't do that either, in most instances..

What if I replace the heads entirely with aftermarket ones?

Don't do that either..

If you follow this road to it's logical conclusion, you end up at http://www.pauter.com, making over 900 horsepower for drag racing 4-cylinder cars.

You said it "Drag Racing". How many teeners drag race?

Their shit is expensive, but it's only money right? You'll always make more.

Thats right.. And thats why my Wife's twin plug 2.9 Liter street car makes more power from less displacement than Don Pauter's Ghia street car that uses one of his "Big Block" engines of greater displacement (3140cc Vs 2866cc). Her engine also gets better MPG (even using 52mm Weber carbs Vs EFI on the Pauter engine) and utilizes STOCK TIV head castings with the only welding being done for the second plug modification. The Pauter engine uses an aftermarket head with much bigger valves and ports.

The stock TIV case is a great foundation. We'll be making over 1,000 HP from a Porkies head equipped, boosted twin plug roller cam engine by years end- if all goes as expected.

[grantsfo]

I wonder why he chose a 4 cylinder??
Oh well, he must be just another one of those brainwashed kool-aid drinking dumb asses.. I wonder why he chose a "Barnyard Bandit" to create the engine for him??

Jake my "Barnyard Bandit" comment wasnt directed at you at all. Again youre injecting your ego into the thread uneccessarily. My Barnyard bandit comment was directed at somone who is selling a $7000 2.8 T4. WTF dude? Too much caffine today?

You now damn well there is no way somone has built a 2.8 T4 turn key that will hold together for any period of time? I'm sure you could buld one but we'd be talking $20K plus for a 2.8 Raby turn key that could compete with a 300 HP subie right?

I will also add that it is irresponsible to direct somone new to T4's to a mega big bore motor. Jake, You yourself told me that most of the motor failures you have seen have been from people not realizing they have lean setup etc. Why not startout wih a less expensive starter motor to make sure he gets everything right? He has stated he is on a budget.

I still think a 2056 T4, Porsche six or a subie are better options. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

[Jake Raby]

OK, looks like Grant has taken his Prozac and all is well.. At least for another 12hours or so :-)

I would agree that the 7K 2.8 more than likely isn't what it should be and there is no evidence that it was ever one of my engines.

Yes, most all engine failures associated with the MassIVe 4 or the Type 4 are related to tuning or improper sub systems.
With today's 2056 capable of 165 HP as a single plug flat tappet 9:1 arrangement, it is certainly gaining popularity. I expect to break 200HP with the 2056 as a roller cammed twin plug engine by the end of the summer.

Thats an engine thats easy to assemble, simple and not very expensive at all.

And remember where the first Porsche was built.. In a shed, on a FARM..

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Jul 2 2008, 10:05 PM

[PeeGreen 914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Gonna have to agree with Grant on this one Jake. He never mentioned you and I have heard a lot of backyard guys trying to build their own version of what you do and fail. We know that what you do is proven and good but is not cheap. I do someday hope to do a monster of a TIV of your design after I have my six all sorted out the way I want.

[LarryR]

I still think a 2056 T4, Porsche six or a subie are better options. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

I think that a lot of people get hung up on displacement and HP. I have done it many times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif). I think the 2270 is really a sweet spot (IMHO they seem to realy fly)

However, if I was going to drop big coin it would be for a porsche 6.

I really think that there is a point where if you need say 300 hp you should just buy a 3.6 porsche engine. You can find 964 engines for somewhere around 6.5K if you take your time and you get to benefit from great resale with a 3.6 combo. 993 engines from 8000-12000 (non turbo). My 3.6 can still scare the crap out of me even after almost 3 years.

The 2270 provides plenty of power though and would provide all the reliability you need.

Just my 2 cents.