Which would you choose?, Subie w/325 hp or 2.8 massive IV with 225 hp Options

[Chris Hamilton]

Cliff, lets hear some more about the Paulter rodded beast?

IMHO dyno charts are better than words. Speculation is nice but it only takes you so for. A good ME knows that numbers are good tools when making comparisons . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do you mean Pauter? As in the Pauter super pro engine?
They're into the 6-second 1/4 miles! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif)

edit, I'm wrong, only 7.1 seconds: http://www.pauter.com/racing_news2.htm

[DBCooper]

IMHO dyno charts are better than words. Speculation is nice but it only takes you so for. A good ME knows that numbers are good tools when making comparisons . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Really Jim? This thread was about choosing between a 225hp Raby big four and a 325hp Subaru. If we're to go strictly by the numbers then that question's been settled, without even getting into the additional initial cost, maintenance, and shorter life of the big four. And more. If numbers and charts are really better than words then Jake should be quiet and just post dyno charts and price quotations, which we can then compare with the Subaru's. Is that what you meant?

[grantsfo]

What will you guys do for heads? Anything special to get 8000 RPM? Does the Hamilton Engineering AX car rev that high? Wow had no idea those motors were reving so high?

Is the current motor in the Hamilton car only a 2.0? If it is its damn impressive. It runs just as fast as the Raby 2.4 in our area and has way more top end. Its clear that the extra stroke is far better approach. That motor has great torque from what I have seen.

My six is a stroker as well and now that I have figured out exhaust issue just last month it makes great low end power. Hey you notice that my car is a little faster lately?

We're using custom ported 1.8 heads ( no welding or anything crazy ), a stock 2.0 camshaft, Nology ignition system. The rods are longer, but the stroke is still the same as the stock 2.0 ( I think the displacement comes out to 1971cc or so ). The highest we've taken it was once at Santa Rosa where the finish was that sort of off-camber turn right by the exit to the track, and andrew couldn't find any decent place to shift. We have a mallory tach with rev-limiter, and we ended up turning it up to about 8,250.

If you wanna feel it, come ride with me at the next autocross.

Did notice you've been closer to us lately. We thought it must have been our old tires ( we bought them to run the parade 07 ). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That would be cool! I would defintely like to see what the motor feels like in the car!

Does your dad build motors for general public? He really has done an outstanding job with current motor in the Hamilton Engineering car. That motor pulls every bit as hard as that big Massive Raby powered car and has much much better top end. You guys have stomped some very high powered competition with those rabbit rod motors including the mongo 2.4 Raby motor car every event for the past two seasons. The Hamilton motors seem to be very tough as well. During the May AX Andrew was bumping off rev limiter on a couple sections every run. I'm just saying you guys should be supplying some of the hard core AX public with an option other than Raby motors. I think you guys are more realistic and certainly more humble.

I was on old tires from last year too! I like that we 914 guys are putting the hurt on everyone with old tires! I have never bought new tires and wont buy new tires until the Shoot out. I buy cheap used tires from people like Randal who had two year old tires and guy back East who had a set of take offs from last year for $80 each. I'm still learning Cantis as well I have only done 5 events on these tires so far.

This post has been edited by grantsfo: Jul 3 2008, 09:44 PM

[grantsfo]

I have an idea! Instead of a Subi or a Raby go for a Hamilton Engineering Rabiit Rod motor! That would make a crazy fast street car and provide perfect power plant for AX.

[Chris Hamilton]

That would be cool! I would defintely like to see what the motor feels like in the car!

Does your dad build motors for general public? He really has done an outstanding job with current motor in the Hamilton Engineering car. That motor pulls every bit as hard as that big Massive Raby powered car and has much much better top end. You guys have stomped some very high powered competition with those rabbit rod motors including the mongo 2.4 Raby motor car every event for the past two seasons. The Hamilton motors seem to be very tough as well. During the May AX Andrew was bumping off rev limiter on a couple sections every run. I'm just saying you guys should be supplying some of the hard core AX public with an option other than Raby motors. I think you guys are more realistic and certainly more humble.

I was on old tires from last year too! I like that we 914 guys are putting the hurt on everyone with old tires! I have never bought new tires and wont buy new tires until the Shoot out. I buy cheap used tires from people like Randal who had two year old tires and guy back East who had a set of take offs from last year for $80 each. I'm still learning Cantis as well I have only done 5 events on these tires so far.

Well, he's supposed to be retired, but he just can't seem to kick the habit!

You should talk to him about the car at the next autocross. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I can also give you his phone number if you want to talk to him and maybe come by and check out some engines he's building right now.


edit: I also think that we need to give a lot of credit to Andrew for being a spectacular driver, and making our stuff look so good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[PeeGreen 914]

I also think that we need to give a lot of credit to Andrew for being a spectacular driver, and making our stuff look so good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Sometimes you can have the best car in the world and still lose. A good driver is worth his weight in gold (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) In our class the last AX a guy that has a stock 2.0l with, exception to a bigger front anti-sway, came within 1.5 seconds of me and beat a 914-6, a full suspension 914 Eurospec, a well setup 2.0l, and a well set up 924. He is amazing to watch as he just flows through the course.

So I guess sometimes you need to make sure you have the same driver when judging what engine is better in a car.

[Spoke]

Back to the original question: Big 4 or Subi; It depends on what you want to do with your car as many have already mentioned.

If you want as much HP as possible AND you like to fabricate stuff, then go Subi or V8.

If you're ok with excellent HP (~200) for your 914, then go Big 4. This could be a drop in replacement and then back to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) I prefer this route because:
A) I want to drive my 914 more than work on it
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) I don't have oodles of time to do the fab work required for a Subi.

About racing Mustangs off the line, I think you'll also need a different tranny that was designed for quick shifting. The 901 doesn't seem to be that good for quick shifts especially from 1st to 2nd.

[DBCooper]

If you want as much HP as possible AND you like to fabricate stuff, then go Subi or V8.

If you're ok with excellent HP (~200) for your 914, then go Big 4. This could be a drop in replacement and then back to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) I prefer this route because:
A) I want to drive my 914 more than work on it
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) I don't have oodles of time to do the fab work required for a Subi.

O.K. if those are the criteria then:

B. Since Renegade sells a kit for those two options they're both pretty much bolt-in, no "fabrication" required. And in any case since the Raby motor costs so much more you could have someone else put either one in and still be thousands ahead.
A. If engine maintenance is done according to the factory schedule you'd be driving the Soob a lot more than you'd be driving any big four, and could get it fixed at most any dealership. Or just bolt in another one, they're cheap. The Raby motor, on the other hand, would get fixed in Georgia.

You'd be driving the Soob a lot longer too, since even their turbo motors go 200,000 miles. That motor will probably outlast your car. With 100 more horsepower the whole time. I don't know the average life expectancy of a 2.8, but it's going to be a fraction of that.

Let me repeat that: with 100 more horsepower the whole time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

But some of what's said about big fours is not technically correct. They aren't just bolt-in. Any big increase in HP requires improvements in suspension and brakes AS WELL as chassis reinforcement. That means cutting and welding on your car, and that's going to be the same for whatever big engine is chosen, the Raby, Sooby, or 911. So for any dramatic horsepower increase you're giving up your car's concours future. If it ever actually had one.

[jimkelly]

all i can say is that we are very lucky to be able to face this dilema - thanks to renegade hybrids out west and jake down south : ))

i wanted a v8 ever since seeing a piece about rod simpson back when i was a kid. my car was a $1500 ebay buy with some rust and other needs. probably best to stick with jake for the more original cars - but feel free to cut that baby up if it has no chance ever of winning a concours event : ))

hey - who the hell stuffed that v8 into my ride : ))

PS - either way - start by bringing your suspension and brakes at least up to properly functioning stock.

[DBCooper]

Never mentioned is the sound of a V8 car. People do double-takes. Everybody recognizes that sound and it should NOT be coming out of that little car.

[jimkelly]

the sound - absolutley - just last week i used my v8 914 to check on some of my real estate listings - to see if any of my signs had fallen/etc - as i was driving away from one property a guy flagged me down about two propeties away - we started talking and he repeated - i saw you drive by and the sound did not match the car. he - at one time had a buick v6 in a triumph stag. i stepped on it a bit as i left him and shifted one gear - then let off - as i began to slow down, i looked to my left down the street and there were about 6 cop cars dealing with a situation -whoa - glad i did not upshift one more time : ))

[grantsfo]

Sixes are pretty sweet sounding too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVG7EqVPK1w

[jimkelly]

i doubt anyone disagrees with you that six-es sound sweet too.

my v8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9viaGK6NA7M

shit - if no one would see me - i might even drive one around town : ))

jim

v8 kit renegade=$2000
radiator kit renegade=$1000
v8 sbc crate engine and goodies $3000
brake parts eric shea=$1000
suspension bits=$1000
beer for buddies to help install=priceless (aka: $8k + beer)
--

Sixes are pretty sweet sounding too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVG7EqVPK1w

[Chris Hamilton]

Never mentioned is the sound of a V8 car. People do double-takes. Everybody recognizes that sound and it should NOT be coming out of that little car.

A good running smallblock chevy v8 with a nice set of headers and mufflers accelerating around 6800rpm is a sound like no other car makes. Anyone considering a v8 needs to check out the edelbrock pro-flo EFI system also.