CALLING ALL 2056 engine owner/builders, survey for past AND future 2056 builders Options

[sww914]

Steve, are you aware that there is a fore/aft adjustment on the alternator? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pirate.gif)

Yeah, I learned that one the hard way like most things. I built a stronger top mount, had a larger billet alt pulley made, refined my stronger top mount, etc., and I've pretty much resigned myself to putting a new belt on it every morning that I race.
If it lasts through the first 2 practice sessions I just leave it off for the rest of the day. I get a couple more HP for the TT and the race that way.
It only take a couple of minutes with no heater stuff and no sheet metal in the way. I don't even need to roll around on the ground, I can get it all from the top.

[VaccaRabite]

Hahaha! Someone necro-polled!
And I just necro-posted.

I wish this board indicated what pole selection you answered. it would be interesting to see what I had to say back in 2008.

Zach

[DanT]

mine was easy...
under $3K
no issues during build
no issues with break in or afterwards... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
If I do a rebuild again on a type 4 it will be another 2056, Great bang for the buck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

[realred914]

i am interested in the REAL world cost and issues incured by others who have built these motors. i recently finished one and so far am extreemly happy with how strong and smooth it runs. there where issues as with alot of things but after working thru them, all is well. my 2056 probably has a bit more done to it than most 2056 builds, that may account for the successful outcome BUT maybe not. from what i've seen this is a highly sucessful combination.

don't be shy and tell us what ALL was done and your detailed experiance with building/driving it. this could be a great help for past and present 2056 builds.

if there is interest i'll make another poll on presures and temp.'s

mike (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

EDIT MCMARK: Added "No Problems"

first off I'd be very interested in what Orange914's real costs were, what brand pistons rings etc.. were used, compression ratio etc... and what induction system/ exhaust system was used.

please tell us more about your build up, since you are" extremely happy " with your motor, please tell us more about it.

currently i am planing one for my dead 2.0 liter. I plan to run stock D-jet and exhaust system.

I'd like to know more about the quality of the pistons available (what brands are available?) and how they are designed (ie wrist pin hieght in relation to stock 2.0 liter pistons, and are they doomed, dished, flat topped))
I'd liek to get an idea of piston quality and compression ratios they give with stock heads.

can you all give some more details on piston brands, adn quality?


thanks

[Bleyseng]

I can tell you mine..
Raby supplied 96mm J&E pistons flat tops, forget the ring manuf...
Raby 9550 cam and lifters
OEM Factory 2.0L heads with 42x38 valves ported..
CR is 9 to 1
tight .45 deck ht

I tuned the Djet (MPS)...AFR is 14.2 to 1 at 2500rpms, WOT is 11 to 1 and levels off at 13 to 1 at 6000rpms.

Engine rocks and anyone who has driven it can't believe its a 2056 four.

Cost about $3000 for the rebuild but would be more now as the cost of heads is much more but worth it.

[realred914]

Great thanks for the details!!!!!


ok, so far on this thread we got at least four brands of big bore pistons:


1...KB

2...AA

3...European motor works

4...J and E



of these four brands, what are the pros-cons of each? quality issues? fit? top configuration...etc....?


I am curooius as I will likely by purchasing new pistons this week.


I'd like to know the scoop on the psitons available for the the big bore 2.0 liter

thanks in advance

[Bleyseng]

The "Best" way is to reuse your 94mm cylinders and have them bored out! The steel is much better quality than the stuff out there. If you are taking apart a engine be careful not to damage the cylinder fins etc...
You pack them up and send them to Raby and have them bored out properly to match the 96mm pistons...go for the J&E's if you can afford it.
If you are planning on buying the pistons separately then you have to have some shop bore them out and hone the cylinders in a clamping fixture to torque em into shape to the correct tolerances...

AA are ok for a bus engine but....also I am running those in my Westy for now.

[realred914]

The "Best" way is to reuse your 94mm cylinders and have them bored out! The steel is much better quality than the stuff out there. If you are taking apart a engine be careful not to damage the cylinder fins etc...
You pack them up and send them to Raby and have them bored out properly to match the 96mm pistons...go for the J&E's if you can afford it.
If you are planning on buying the pistons separately then you have to have some shop bore them out and hone the cylinders in a clamping fixture to torque em into shape to the correct tolerances...

AA are ok for a bus engine but....also I am running those in my Westy for now.

whats the good thing with J and E's???? you indicate they are expensive. what is the good thing about them?

I have heard about AA for Wasserboxers, that they are not made right with wrong wrist pin hole spacing , resulting in a low compression dog motor , then i heard they moved the pin hole, but changed teh tops so they became overly high compression hand grenade pistons (or visa versa) at any rate they got a bad name for wasserboxer owners. so for that reason I'd stay away from them unless I hear other wise

[VaccaRabite]

I have heard bad things about the AA sets for higher compression motors.

In my motor I am running KB flat top pistons. My deck height is .040 for a 9.2:1 CR. The motor PULLS. I am still tuning the carbs, and when I get them set this is going to be a great motor.

I gave ScottyB a ride at Plaskets BBQ during the tuning session, and he could not believe it was a 2L.

Zach

[Jake Raby]

Funny this popped back up.. I am assembling a 2056 tonight, its the 160K mile engine that I tore down in this article on my site. I built this in 2002 for my personal 912E
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/index.p...&Itemid=112

I am going back together with it almost exactly the same way, except with a new set of RS+ heads because the 2 liter castings were toast (as they ALWAYS are). I am actually going down on camshaft from a 9530 to a 9550 to better match the desires I have for the engine.

I plan on posting the build up with all the used parts and a few new ones on my site.. The 160K mile KB pistons are even being reused! My goal is to only make the same power the engine made previously, around 130HP at the flywheel, I'd like to see 110 RWHP but at a lower RPM than previously, this is for my 30K+ mile per year daily driver that needs to average north of 35 MPG..

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Aug 23 2010, 06:11 PM

[orange914]

i am interested in the REAL world cost and issues incured by others who have built these motors. i recently finished one and so far am extreemly happy with how strong and smooth it runs. there where issues as with alot of things but after working thru them, all is well. my 2056 probably has a bit more done to it than most 2056 builds, that may account for the successful outcome BUT maybe not. from what i've seen this is a highly sucessful combination.

don't be shy and tell us what ALL was done and your detailed experiance with building/driving it. this could be a great help for past and present 2056 builds.

if there is interest i'll make another poll on presures and temp.'s

mike (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

EDIT MCMARK: Added "No Problems"

first off I'd be very interested in what Orange914's real costs were, what brand pistons rings etc.. were used, compression ratio etc... and what induction system/ exhaust system was used.

please tell us more about your build up, since you are" extremely happy " with your motor, please tell us more about it.

currently i am planing one for my dead 2.0 liter. I plan to run stock D-jet and exhaust system.

I'd like to know more about the quality of the pistons available (what brands are available?) and how they are designed (ie wrist pin hieght in relation to stock 2.0 liter pistons, and are they doomed, dished, flat topped))
I'd liek to get an idea of piston quality and compression ratios they give with stock heads.

can you all give some more details on piston brands, adn quality?


thanks

i'll do my best in the details for you, but 2 years back memory... well you know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) to start i drove every one nut's becouse i was a super stickler for details (at least in my mind ; ). there where many extra things that aren't normally done that i spent $$$ for along with starting from scratch and buying ALL 2.0 d-jet components, new harness (+ modifications M.P.S.), sir andy came thru with the builder 2.0 bottom end that was previously line bored, balanced and 6 dowel pin modified crank that just needed polishing.

pistons: o.e. (mahle?) 96mm (slight) dish
rings: deves
cylinders: rimco bored o.e. mahles (94mm to 96mm)
compression: 9.3:1
induction: 2.0 d-jet, 043 (modified M.P.S.), 051 E.C.U. (75-6), jeff bowlsby harness, insulation wrapped steel fuel lines through out hot engine bay area, fuel pressure 31 lbs. (permanent fuel gauge in injector loop)
exhaust: s/s heat exchangers and monza exhaust
ignition: pertronics (great bang for your $)
oil: 30 mm mellings, 0.40 shim in 1st oil.pres. releif valve, tapped galley plugs
flywheel: 11 lb. new o.e. clutch/p.p.
valve train: 9550 cam/matched lifters, titanium pushrods (valve train geometry done), modified 1.7 rockers w/ o.e. swivel feet
cooling: take care to seal tight and use EVERY tin peice and hole plug, ect...

i also spent way too much on the heads. not that they weren't worth it but i just overbought in hind sight. this kind of forced me to do some extra expenses to justify the $ i spent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) i'm not sorry at the end of the day, but as i was modifying the fairly stock car away from stock i've always questioned whether a conversion would have yeilded much more h.p./reliability for the same $? we don't have many miles on ours yet, but after breakin and a few to be expected issues with a new motor like timing (and one unexpected machining issue), it ran great and got 28 m.p.g. on the rough tune. it ran no more 325* on the hotest upgrade hyway sprint @85 mph on a 100* day.

since your starting with a 2.0 you won't have near the expense. i think some of the key things to a good lasting/running engine is to focus on quality o.e. parts as much as possible, balancing the rotating assembly, valve train geometry, ignition. good luck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[realred914]

i am interested in the REAL world cost and issues incured by others who have built these motors. i recently finished one and so far am extreemly happy with how strong and smooth it runs. there where issues as with alot of things but after working thru them, all is well. my 2056 probably has a bit more done to it than most 2056 builds, that may account for the successful outcome BUT maybe not. from what i've seen this is a highly sucessful combination.

don't be shy and tell us what ALL was done and your detailed experiance with building/driving it. this could be a great help for past and present 2056 builds.

if there is interest i'll make another poll on presures and temp.'s

mike (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

EDIT MCMARK: Added "No Problems"

first off I'd be very interested in what Orange914's real costs were, what brand pistons rings etc.. were used, compression ratio etc... and what induction system/ exhaust system was used.

please tell us more about your build up, since you are" extremely happy " with your motor, please tell us more about it.

currently i am planing one for my dead 2.0 liter. I plan to run stock D-jet and exhaust system.

I'd like to know more about the quality of the pistons available (what brands are available?) and how they are designed (ie wrist pin hieght in relation to stock 2.0 liter pistons, and are they doomed, dished, flat topped))
I'd liek to get an idea of piston quality and compression ratios they give with stock heads.

can you all give some more details on piston brands, adn quality?


thanks

i'll do my best in the details for you, but 2 years back memory... well you know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) to start i drove every one nut's becouse i was a super stickler for details (at least in my mind ; ). there where many extra things that aren't normally done that i spent $$$ for along with starting from scratch and buying ALL 2.0 d-jet components, new harness (+ modifications M.P.S.), sir andy came thru with the builder 2.0 bottom end that was previously line bored, balanced and 6 dowel pin modified crank that just needed polishing.

pistons: o.e. (mahle?) 96mm (slight) dish
rings: deves
cylinders: rimco bored o.e. mahles (94mm to 96mm)
compression: 9.3:1
induction: 2.0 d-jet, 043 (modified M.P.S.), 051 E.C.U. (75-6), jeff bowlsby harness, insulation wrapped steel fuel lines through out hot engine bay area, fuel pressure 31 lbs. (permanent fuel gauge in injector loop)
exhaust: s/s heat exchangers and monza exhaust
ignition: pertronics (great bang for your $)
oil: 30 mm mellings, 0.40 shim in 1st oil.pres. releif valve, tapped galley plugs
flywheel: 11 lb. new o.e. clutch/p.p.
valve train: 9550 cam/matched lifters, titanium pushrods (valve train geometry done), modified 1.7 rockers w/ o.e. swivel feet
cooling: take care to seal tight and use EVERY tin peice and hole plug, ect...

i also spent way too much on the heads. not that they weren't worth it but i just overbought in hind sight. this kind of forced me to do some extra expenses to justify the $ i spent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) i'm not sorry at the end of the day, but as i was modifying the fairly stock car away from stock i've always questioned whether a conversion would have yeilded much more h.p./reliability for the same $? we don't have many miles on ours yet, but after breakin and a few to be expected issues with a new motor like timing (and one unexpected machining issue), it ran great and got 28 m.p.g. on the rough tune. it ran no more 325* on the hotest upgrade hyway sprint @85 mph on a 100* day.

since your starting with a 2.0 you won't have near the expense. i think some of the key things to a good lasting/running engine is to focus on quality o.e. parts as much as possible, balancing the rotating assembly, valve train geometry, ignition. good luck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

cool, thanks so it is running nice for you!!!!

I got to decide real quick on piston set to buy (or reuse my factory 2.0 ones) id like a bump in power to keep up,

I also like the idea of Mr Raby's 35 mpg average. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) I used to get about 40 mpg all highway driving in my old 1.7 car (fully loaded, driving fast) and mid 30's mpg around town/commute average. (that was on good old gasoline, not the State mandated oxygenated, fuel system destroying crap gasocrapoline that the California nazi like Air Resource Board (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) has forced on us, the forced oxygenated stuff cost more and has 10-15% less energy content than the old gasoline, plus the new stuff can be corrosive to some gas system parts, metal and rubber)

one thing is I am kind of set on D-jet system right now, unless I could afford a better Fi system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) then a bigger yet motor would be possible, maybe a better mpg motor too, with better fuel control system.

[realred914]

Funny this popped back up.. I am assembling a 2056 tonight, its the 160K mile engine that I tore down in this article on my site. I built this in 2002 for my personal 912E
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/index.p...&Itemid=112

I am going back together with it almost exactly the same way, except with a new set of RS+ heads because the 2 liter castings were toast (as they ALWAYS are). I am actually going down on camshaft from a 9530 to a 9550 to better match the desires I have for the engine.

I plan on posting the build up with all the used parts and a few new ones on my site.. The 160K mile KB pistons are even being reused! My goal is to only make the same power the engine made previously, around 130HP at the flywheel, I'd like to see 110 RWHP but at a lower RPM than previously, this is for my 30K+ mile per year daily driver that needs to average north of 35 MPG..

so I take it you really like the KB piston? Just wondering what advantages do you find over some of the others from a technical stand point? is the material or build qulaity, piston design (combustion chamber, pin hieght, etc...) that makes the KB your choice? I understand they are forged, which should be a good thing strength wise.

thanks for advice

[JimN73]

I'm going thru a 2056 rebuild right now, the outcome of a spun rod bearing. Looked like everything was original when I opened the case, so I decided to 'upgrade' to 96 mm pistons, more performance oriented cam, higher compression and lightened flywheel.

The original estimate was for about $2K in parts, including a slush fund for stuff I didn't know about and $1K for the machine shop to do an align bore if needed, clean up the crank, lighten the flywheel and surface the heads. The plan was to do some/most/all of the work myself. I was given an estimate of about 25 hours for the garage to do it.

As noted above, the heads can really bite you in the butt. Mine had cracks in the exhaust ports. The options are to have them repaired ($400 to $800) and hope the repair is done right and will last, buy 1.8 liter heads from AA for $950 each or buy new from Jake Raby.

I bought new at about $3,300. that's a lot, but it's not as bad as it seems. In addition to the heads, you get stainless valves, springs, shims, adjusters, intake, exhaust, and rocker studs, cam camgear and lifters - maybe I left something out. Doubled the cost of the project, though.

[scotty b]

Jake, what are the limitations with stock 2.0 injection when building a 2056 ? Can Lens heads be used for the 150 h.p. motor, or would one need to stick with cleaned up stock heads and 110-130 h.p. ?

Just curious as I have a LOW mileage original 2.0. I held onto. Dropped a valve with 8000 miles on the o.d. Thinking about a stock looking 2056 for my old mans car if I ever get back on it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Funny this popped back up.. I am assembling a 2056 tonight, its the 160K mile engine that I tore down in this article on my site. I built this in 2002 for my personal 912E
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/index.p...&Itemid=112

I am going back together with it almost exactly the same way, except with a new set of RS+ heads because the 2 liter castings were toast (as they ALWAYS are). I am actually going down on camshaft from a 9530 to a 9550 to better match the desires I have for the engine.

I plan on posting the build up with all the used parts and a few new ones on my site.. The 160K mile KB pistons are even being reused! My goal is to only make the same power the engine made previously, around 130HP at the flywheel, I'd like to see 110 RWHP but at a lower RPM than previously, this is for my 30K+ mile per year daily driver that needs to average north of 35 MPG..

so I take it you really like the KB piston? Just wondering what advantages do you find over some of the others from a technical stand point? is the material or build qulaity, piston design (combustion chamber, pin hieght, etc...) that makes the KB your choice? I understand they are forged, which should be a good thing strength wise.

thanks for advice

My pistons were in such good shape at 160K that I ended up reusing them for the new build. I simply blasted them with corn cob media and cleaned them up well. These were THE FIRST 96mm KB pistons that the company made, they were the prototypes! After all that time they measured out perfectly and had no scuffing or wear, you'll see pics in my "rebuild" thread over on my forums when I put it all together after the engine is on the dyno.

The KB pistons are light, super strong and their composition makes them perfect for a hotter running aircooled engine, due to that we can run much tighter skirt clearances than with a JE, Mahle or etc.

As noted above, the heads can really bite you in the butt. Mine had cracks in the exhaust ports. The options are to have them repaired ($400 to $800) and hope the repair is done right and will last, buy 1.8 liter heads from AA for $950 each or buy new from Jake Raby.

My heads were used up.. Len refused to do any work on them and I respected that. I just picked up my set of RS+ heads from him yesterday for the new engine. Head castings have a service life, people learn that when they TRY to reuse the castings again only to spend a ton of money and still have 30+ year old heads that are on their last leg. I can rebuild these new RS+ heads for the next 30 years as they are at the beginning of their service life.

The only new parts I used in this engine was:
camshaft (changed the profile)
piston rings
cylinder head assemblies
main, rod and cam bearings
rods (swapped out a set to save time)

It'll go another 150K+, the crank has 260K on it now and still mic'd out to 2.1682 which is better than stock sizing with only a .0002 ovality between all 4 journals!

Wait till you see the transformation I have given this baby with minimum expenditure. I have all new stuff 20 feet away, but I'd rather prove how robust the parts are for another 150K!

[Cevan]

My cost was about $3000 total to rebuild a 2.0 into a 2056.

From Jake’s store I purchased:

KB pistons
AA cylinders
Hastings rings
H beam conrods
new bearings
supervalvetrain kit
1.7 rockers w/swivel foot adjusts
Manton pushrods
gasket set
polish crank
dynamic balancing
sealants

Heads rebuilt by Len Hoffman, all new hardware.

No major issues encountered during the rebuild other than cutting one of the pushrods too short. Very happy with the 2056 after 1400 miles.

[realred914]

My cost was about $3000 total to rebuild a 2.0 into a 2056.

From Jake’s store I purchased:

KB pistons
AA cylinders
Hastings rings
H beam conrods
new bearings
supervalvetrain kit
1.7 rockers w/swivel foot adjusts
Manton pushrods
gasket set
polish crank
dynamic balancing
sealants

Heads rebuilt by Len Hoffman, all new hardware.

No major issues encountered during the rebuild other than cutting one of the pushrods too short. Very happy with the 2056 after 1400 miles.

first I did not see the pistons offered for sale on Rabys website, but it is a big website, can yo post a link to the piston page????? I could not find them. I need to get my pistons pretty soon as the engien is awaiting, all part and ready to get together. pending parts.

also are teh KB psitons cast or forged, i was told the 96 mm they make are only cast and not up to snuff compaired to the forged ones such as JE pistons. maybe I am mistaken???


I see AA cylinders were used by you, i know a guy who has found AA cylinders to be a bit softer metal when he bores them verse stock cylinders. I have a place that can bore my stock ones to 96 mm, would that be a better choice of cylinder material verse an AA one?


I am looking to get a nice daily driver with D-jet with a bit of performance boost, fully balanced smooth motor for long life and decent economy on gas.

just have to select the best parts for it now.

thanks in advance!!!!!!!!!!

[Jake Raby]

first I did not see the pistons offered for sale on Rabys website, but it is a big website, can yo post a link to the piston page????? I could not find them. I need to get my pistons pretty soon as the engien is awaiting, all part and ready to get together. pending parts.

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/home.php?cat=273

also are teh KB psitons cast or forged, i was told the 96 mm they make are only cast and not up to snuff compaired to the forged ones such as JE pistons. maybe I am mistaken???

Who were they and how many thousand sets have they had pass through their doors??

These KBs have 160K miles on them. I measured them and inspected them and just dropped the crank back into my personal engine that they came from.. I will be REUSING these same 160K mile pistons with just new rings as they spec out perfectly.

JE pistons and many other forged units have negative aspects on the street, to include oil consumption and rattling when cold, these do not.
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/index.p...&Itemid=112

I see AA cylinders were used by you, i know a guy who has found AA cylinders to be a bit softer metal when he bores them verse stock cylinders. I have a place that can bore my stock ones to 96 mm, would that be a better choice of cylinder material verse an AA one?

We don't use them off the shelf in our engines. Boring the stock cylinders isn't easy if done right as it requires a torque plate to hone the cylinder under load. It also requires that you know the target roughness average (RA) that the rings you are using and the plateau finish specs.

I am looking to get a nice daily driver with D-jet with a bit of performance boost, fully balanced smooth motor for long life and decent economy on gas.

Exactly what my engine linked above did for 160K miles, exactly what it will be doing for another 160K miles once I complete the work I am doing to it now. Keep in mind that engine saw zero repair in 8 years and 160K and went over 6 years with no valve adjustment necessary, just checks. It went as much as 23,000 miles on a single oil service.

just have to select the best parts for it now.

thanks in advance!!!!!!!!!!

Not a problem at all.

[Don M]

the crank has 260K on it now and still mic'd out to 2.1682 which is better than stock sizing with only a .0002 ovality between all 4 journals!

is this right? seems to be o/s +.003