HELP Car waiting for tow, problem diagnosis., Starter issue? Options

[klikkid3]

Ok so I found the tiny screw on the side to get the starter switch out, and looky what I found, I dont know if it could be the problem but it sure does need replacing. Could this be the issue? The fact that it still turns over without the ignition in or the yellow wire is strange, i guess this is one less thing for the mechanic to try and charge me for, I have enjoyed a few gin and tonics to ease the frustration about this one. I will try again tomorrow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[RoadGlue]

Thankfully the switch is a $10 part (or less) from Pelican. You'll definitely want to replace that. The bad news is that you have something else going on if the starter still turns over with the switch removed.

Remove the small wire from the starter solenoid and then try connecting the battery again. Does it still turn over then?

[r_towle]

Now you see why I called it a cheap ass plastic part....

Get two...you will break it again...

On the starter.
Please show your wiring right at the starter.
What wire goes to what post?

There should only be three, and the number shall be three.

There are two large posts and one flat spade terminal.
One large post has just a ground strap that goes from the starter solenoid (the round coke can sized thing) to the main body of the starter.

The second large post has two wired going to it.
One large battery cable that goes to the battery positive terminal.
One smaller wire, red, that goes to the alternator.

The flat spade terminal is on top of the solenoid at about 12 oclock and this terminal has the yellow wire that goes to the ignition switch.

Please explain what your wiring is like.

What you need to make sure of is that the spade terminal has no power when the key is off. This is the trigger that engages the solenoid and should only get power when the key is in the start position. NO OTHER POSITION.

There will be power on the large terminal, its the one that goes to the battery...so that is correct.

If all the wiring is as described, you need to physically follow the yellow wire all the way from the starter to the key...it may have been spliced in to something wrong, or melted, or or or...
You need to touch it all the way to the key.

RIch

[klikkid3]

I havent picked up the new switch yet, the website shows that NAPA has them. Here is the pic of the wiring. The red wire in the foreground is the yellow wire spade, the two large are on top with the ground on the bottom. The red wire is on the top spade.

[RoadGlue]

The photo makes it look like the red wire isn't actually going to the top connector. It looks like the wire has fallen out. Am I just seeing things?

[RoadGlue]

On second look, I think it's just a trick of the perspective, light, etc.

Just unplug the red wire from the top connector for the moment and then hook up the battery again. It's a super easy test, and if the starter still engages, then you know that the solenoid has taken a big dump.

[klikkid3]

On second look, I think it's just a trick of the perspective, light, etc.

Just unplug the red wire from the top connector for the moment and then hook up the battery again. It's a super easy test, and if the starter still engages, then you know that the solenoid has taken a big dump.

Ok it doesnt turn over when the red wire is taken off, I am predicting that the new starter switch shorted and melted and the yellow wire also melted somewhere in between and is shorting on metal which is causing the starter to engage. Is it possible to attach a new yellow wire and pull it all the way through the car to the ignition?

[klikkid3]

Well new starter switch is in and same result, starter still turns over when battery is connected. I guess next step will be to change the entire yellow ignition wire.

[ArtechnikA]

I am predicting that the ...yellow wire also melted somewhere in between and is shorting on metal which is causing the starter to engage.

The yellow wire is power. if it is shorting to ground, not only will the starter not be engaging, but you'll be able to find the location by the thick clouds of acrid smoke.

So it ain't that.

I suppose it is marginally possible that it is somehow connected (fused/melted) to the Big Red wire, but I am skeptical about that...

[klikkid3]

I am predicting that the ...yellow wire also melted somewhere in between and is shorting on metal which is causing the starter to engage.

The yellow wire is power. if it is shorting to ground, not only will the starter not be engaging, but you'll be able to find the location by the thick clouds of acrid smoke.

So it ain't that.

I suppose it is marginally possible that it is somehow connected (fused/melted) to the Big Red wire, but I am skeptical about that...

I would almost welcome a cloud of smoke so I would at least know what the problem was, I checked the volt meter, I have 18 volts at the red wire attached to the top spade, 0 volts at the yellow wire with the key out, will it only show a reading when the key is turned? I have the red wire disconnected, when I touch it to the spade on the starter it begins to turn over, yellow wire has no effect.

[ArtechnikA]

...I have 18 volts at the red wire attached to the top spade, 0 volts at the yellow wire with the key out, will it only show a reading when the key is turned? I have the red wire disconnected, when I touch it to the spade on the starter it begins to turn over, yellow wire has no effect.

if you -really- have 18V you definitely have a myriad of electrical issues. 13.6 is a real good number for a healthy charging system with the engine running. if you have 18V all bets are off - it could even be multiple bad diodes in the alternator. Please recheck that value (and your meter, on some kind of calibrated source - like a 9V radio battery...)

What you have described is the way it's supposed to work.

Here's the background on the way it works.

*basically* - the solenoid is a relay. With an extra function. The Big Red Wire is connected directly to the battery for maximum current while cranking.

What's -supposed- to happen when you turn the key is that current is supplied to the solenoid via the yellow wire. The first thing that happens next is that the electromagnet in the solenoid sucks down the plunger and that, by way of leverage, forces the starter gear into mechanical coupling with the flywheel ring gear. *then* (essentially simultaneously) a switch contact is made providing Big Red Wire power to the starter motor.

So - the solenoid connects the starter to the ring gear mechanically, and connects the starter motor to the battery electrically.

if connecting power to the solenoid spade -without- connecting it to the normal Big Red Wire lug makes the solenoid engage -and- runs the starter motor, turning over the engine, I think you have some kind of wierd internal short/connection. You should not be able to power the starter motor from the solenoid spade.

[klikkid3]

I agree, here is the latest, the yellow wire is fine, the new ignition switch in place yellow wire hooked up, turn the key and starter works like it should. Problems at this point, red wire spade straight from battery still turns starter when touched to spade no matter what position key is in and fuel pump doesnt kick on in key accessory position so car wont run.

[ws91420]

I havent picked up the new switch yet, the website shows that NAPA has them. Here is the pic of the wiring. The red wire in the foreground is the yellow wire spade, the two large are on top with the ground on the bottom. The red wire is on the top spade.

Okay the red wire on the spade with the yellow wire. Did you say it goes to the battery? If it is going to the pos post that is why your starter is staying on w/o turning the key. The big question is why is it there and what was the purpose intended for it?

[orange914]

I agree, here is the latest, the yellow wire is fine, the new ignition switch in place yellow wire hooked up, turn the key and starter works like it should. Problems at this point, red wire spade straight from battery still turns starter when touched to spade no matter what position key is in and fuel pump doesnt kick on in key accessory position so car wont run.

wait a minute... red wire spade straight from battery...

you aren't adding power straiht from battery to the same terminal as yellow... right?

[markb]

Yup, it sounds like somebody added the red wire. I don't think it's supposed to be there at all.

[orange914]

Yup, it sounds like somebody added the red wire. I don't think it's supposed to be there at all.

so, klikkid3, does the "red" wire have 12v at all times? if so it doesn't belong on the same terminal as the yellow wire. remove it for now (tape it up if it's hot). see if all starts normal now with the battery hooked up.

but, something is still getting lost in this thread... if someone added this red "hot" wire to the same terminal as the "s" terminal (with the yellow ign. wire). then it would have had this issue since addition. the original post states:
"I was coasting down mountain ave when the light changed so I down shifted into third, and it started."

at this point it sounds like you've isolated why your energizing the soliniod. the question now is why is the "red" wire giving power and/or hooked to the "s" terminal. if it's suposed to be there (added or factory) then why did it start to power when "I was coasting down mountain ave"?

[klikkid3]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) You guys nailed it, I have left the red wire off and swithed a relay for the fuel pump and now it starts and runs. I am stumped about the red wire. The only mods I can see in there are a yellow top optima battery and a prostart 12v series surge protector I assume that is what it is because it is connected to the positive terminal and then down to the starter. It is strange that the red wire was hooked up originally but cant be used now. There is a shop down the street I heard good things about I am taking it there tuesday. Once again you all were a big help thank you.

Phill

[r_towle]

Your surge protector has melted inside and is now a straight power lead to the starter.

Remove it from the car altogether, its really not needed.

The rest sounds fine and everything is all better.

Rich

[orange914]

Your surge protector has melted inside and is now a straight power lead to the starter.

Remove it from the car altogether, its really not needed.

The rest sounds fine and everything is all better.

Rich

what surge protector, where? is this an add on wire? didnt you say it went straight to hot?