So I recently get done with my front bearing project and the car was running so smooth and nice that I had that fear in the back of my mind about when it was all going to end. Well today I was coasting down mountain ave when the light changed so I down shifted into third, and it started. The starter is staying engaged with or without the key in. I pulled over and popped the lid and disconnected the negative terminal. Checked the wiring at the selenoid which looked normal, every time I reconnect the battery the starter engages and attempts to start the car. What do you all think? There is the obvious replace the starter but any other suggestions? I have a tow kit on it so I will try and get it home to take a closer look. Help!

Pull the yellow wire off the solenoid. If this fixes it, then the problem is in the ignition switch / wiring. If not, the problem is in the starter (solenoid)

starter relay could be shot.

I agree, unplug the yellow wire at the starter so you can get hom without starting a fire from the hot starter...

Rich

probably the ignition switch, 20 min fix.
even if that was not the problem, it soon will be if the starter is being run excessive. I suggest replace it either way, mine had a nice crispy smell when i pulled it out, and i got better key action now

I made sure to pull over and disconnect the battery when the problem started so hopefully I the avoided the crispy smelling starter. When I quickly touch the battery posts the starter sound normal it just wont shut off until the battery is disconnected. Your getting my hopes up with the 20min fix comment. What should I look for in the ignition after I get it home?

hows your battery voltage under a cranking load? i've seen the solinoid "weld itself" from low voltage (weak battery). it archs internally and sticks. if you have voltage to the starter wire when its hooked up but not when disconnected then the soliniod is froze. sometimes a new (charged battery) and a smack to the solinoid is all it takes

mike

in my case, I pulled the stearing wheel unscrewed the long screws holding the switches, then I spent one hour tring to get the switch out after i unscrewed the bolts. All that frusteration could have been avoided if i had the damn key in the ignition it allows the cylnder to slide foreward. Anyway, the switch is plastic, and the lead to the starter was burned and some of the plastic was melted on mine.

hope this helps

Switch is stuck in the on position. replace it.

I will give it a try tonight, cant imagine what the shop would charge for that job. So when I get the switch out I should look for melting? I wouldnt be surprised. I am starting to think the Big Oil companies are sabotaging my 914 so I will have to keep driving my chevy avalanche from gas station to gas station.

Ok I pulled the yellow wire and it still tries to start with the key out of the ignition, so that means the starter for sure right? I will try smacking it a little harder for the heck of it. I saw some other threads but I am here so I will ask anyways, anyone have a sure fire trick to remove the top bolt of the starter?

That one is easy, remove the nut form inside the engine compartment.

your soliniod is welded. make sure you have a full charge/good battery & cables/commections. if you can possibly "tap" loose the soliniod you should be good (if battery stuff is up to par). if not you'll probably just need a soliniod. go to the local parts house and have them check th starter itself too while it's out

mike

Well its not the starter , new ones is in and still the same problem, but it was probably due for a new one anyway from the looks of the gear and I brushed away about thirty years of dirt and grime and sprayed undercoating while I was there. So how about that starter switch in the column, its the next probable cause, I could still use any hints or ideas you all might have.

Look under the passenger seat and tell us if you have the "logic circuit" under there...It looks like a 2.5 inch long relay.

If not, time to take apart the steering column.

Remove horn (turn counter clockwise while pressing in...it pops about a 1/4 turn, then lift off and unplug the horn wire while lifting...so dont just yank)

Remove large nut, 24mm I think...
Pull wheel, set on a rag, its greasy on the bottom.
Four screws, little flat heads are facing you...remove them.
Gently pull blinker arm and wiper arm towards your face....
there are two plugs that connect these so you are pulling and possibly crawling under the dash to unplug them first...
There are also two washer hoses on the left side that you need to remove...

Once all of that is out, you can pull the lock tumbler
Behind the lock tumber is the cheap ass plastic broken igntion switch.
When you order a new one, buy two they are cheap...and you will break it again.

I found that the only one out there is for certain columns and needs to be shaved to fit in the older column....depends upon the column in your car...you will match it to your exiting switch.

Rich

"Cheap ass plastic broken ignition switch" there is no way I could miss it with a description like that.

its always the cheap ass plastic part that leaves you stranded...
You wont miss it...

Rich

Rich, I read earlier on this post to keep the key in to pull the ignition assembly, what position does it need to be in? Does the unit just slide out or do i need to pull with some force, by the way doing this help me figure out why my windshield wipers dont work, THEY WERENT PLUGGED IN!

Nevermind, I got the assembly out but how do i get the starter switch out, just yank, I see two tabs on the sides but I can not tell if they get squeezed in out other wise. The black is grease, i dont see any melting yet.

Also a quick note, I have the entire ignition cylinder assembly out, and the starter is still turning over when I reconnect the battery. This is wierd.

you have issues.

First, the switch may be screwed in there sideways...if not pull harder.

Follow the YELLOW wire back the the ignition.
It goes all the way to that switch, and it should not have power on it until you turn the key to start...It obviously does have power.

Rich

Ok so I found the tiny screw on the side to get the starter switch out, and looky what I found, I dont know if it could be the problem but it sure does need replacing. Could this be the issue? The fact that it still turns over without the ignition in or the yellow wire is strange, i guess this is one less thing for the mechanic to try and charge me for, I have enjoyed a few gin and tonics to ease the frustration about this one. I will try again tomorrow.

Thankfully the switch is a $10 part (or less) from Pelican. You'll definitely want to replace that. The bad news is that you have something else going on if the starter still turns over with the switch removed.

Remove the small wire from the starter solenoid and then try connecting the battery again. Does it still turn over then?

Now you see why I called it a cheap ass plastic part....

Get two...you will break it again...

On the starter.
Please show your wiring right at the starter.
What wire goes to what post?

There should only be three, and the number shall be three.

There are two large posts and one flat spade terminal.
One large post has just a ground strap that goes from the starter solenoid (the round coke can sized thing) to the main body of the starter.

The second large post has two wired going to it.
One large battery cable that goes to the battery positive terminal.
One smaller wire, red, that goes to the alternator.

The flat spade terminal is on top of the solenoid at about 12 oclock and this terminal has the yellow wire that goes to the ignition switch.

Please explain what your wiring is like.

What you need to make sure of is that the spade terminal has no power when the key is off. This is the trigger that engages the solenoid and should only get power when the key is in the start position. NO OTHER POSITION.

There will be power on the large terminal, its the one that goes to the battery...so that is correct.

If all the wiring is as described, you need to physically follow the yellow wire all the way from the starter to the key...it may have been spliced in to something wrong, or melted, or or or...
You need to touch it all the way to the key.

RIch

I havent picked up the new switch yet, the website shows that NAPA has them. Here is the pic of the wiring. The red wire in the foreground is the yellow wire spade, the two large are on top with the ground on the bottom. The red wire is on the top spade.

The photo makes it look like the red wire isn't actually going to the top connector. It looks like the wire has fallen out. Am I just seeing things?

On second look, I think it's just a trick of the perspective, light, etc.

Just unplug the red wire from the top connector for the moment and then hook up the battery again. It's a super easy test, and if the starter still engages, then you know that the solenoid has taken a big dump.

Ok it doesnt turn over when the red wire is taken off, I am predicting that the new starter switch shorted and melted and the yellow wire also melted somewhere in between and is shorting on metal which is causing the starter to engage. Is it possible to attach a new yellow wire and pull it all the way through the car to the ignition?

Well new starter switch is in and same result, starter still turns over when battery is connected. I guess next step will be to change the entire yellow ignition wire.

The yellow wire is power. if it is shorting to ground, not only will the starter not be engaging, but you'll be able to find the location by the thick clouds of acrid smoke.

So it ain't that.

I suppose it is marginally possible that it is somehow connected (fused/melted) to the Big Red wire, but I am skeptical about that...

I would almost welcome a cloud of smoke so I would at least know what the problem was, I checked the volt meter, I have 18 volts at the red wire attached to the top spade, 0 volts at the yellow wire with the key out, will it only show a reading when the key is turned? I have the red wire disconnected, when I touch it to the spade on the starter it begins to turn over, yellow wire has no effect.

if you -really- have 18V you definitely have a myriad of electrical issues. 13.6 is a real good number for a healthy charging system with the engine running. if you have 18V all bets are off - it could even be multiple bad diodes in the alternator. Please recheck that value (and your meter, on some kind of calibrated source - like a 9V radio battery...)

What you have described is the way it's supposed to work.

Here's the background on the way it works.

*basically* - the solenoid is a relay. With an extra function. The Big Red Wire is connected directly to the battery for maximum current while cranking.

What's -supposed- to happen when you turn the key is that current is supplied to the solenoid via the yellow wire. The first thing that happens next is that the electromagnet in the solenoid sucks down the plunger and that, by way of leverage, forces the starter gear into mechanical coupling with the flywheel ring gear. *then* (essentially simultaneously) a switch contact is made providing Big Red Wire power to the starter motor.

So - the solenoid connects the starter to the ring gear mechanically, and connects the starter motor to the battery electrically.

if connecting power to the solenoid spade -without- connecting it to the normal Big Red Wire lug makes the solenoid engage -and- runs the starter motor, turning over the engine, I think you have some kind of wierd internal short/connection. You should not be able to power the starter motor from the solenoid spade.

I agree, here is the latest, the yellow wire is fine, the new ignition switch in place yellow wire hooked up, turn the key and starter works like it should. Problems at this point, red wire spade straight from battery still turns starter when touched to spade no matter what position key is in and fuel pump doesnt kick on in key accessory position so car wont run.

Okay the red wire on the spade with the yellow wire. Did you say it goes to the battery? If it is going to the pos post that is why your starter is staying on w/o turning the key. The big question is why is it there and what was the purpose intended for it?

wait a minute... red wire spade straight from battery...

you aren't adding power straiht from battery to the same terminal as yellow... right?

Yup, it sounds like somebody added the red wire. I don't think it's supposed to be there at all.

so, klikkid3, does the "red" wire have 12v at all times? if so it doesn't belong on the same terminal as the yellow wire. remove it for now (tape it up if it's hot). see if all starts normal now with the battery hooked up.

but, something is still getting lost in this thread... if someone added this red "hot" wire to the same terminal as the "s" terminal (with the yellow ign. wire). then it would have had this issue since addition. the original post states:
"I was coasting down mountain ave when the light changed so I down shifted into third, and it started."

at this point it sounds like you've isolated why your energizing the soliniod. the question now is why is the "red" wire giving power and/or hooked to the "s" terminal. if it's suposed to be there (added or factory) then why did it start to power when "I was coasting down mountain ave"?

You guys nailed it, I have left the red wire off and swithed a relay for the fuel pump and now it starts and runs. I am stumped about the red wire. The only mods I can see in there are a yellow top optima battery and a prostart 12v series surge protector I assume that is what it is because it is connected to the positive terminal and then down to the starter. It is strange that the red wire was hooked up originally but cant be used now. There is a shop down the street I heard good things about I am taking it there tuesday. Once again you all were a big help thank you.

Phill

Your surge protector has melted inside and is now a straight power lead to the starter.

Remove it from the car altogether, its really not needed.

The rest sounds fine and everything is all better.

Rich

what surge protector, where? is this an add on wire? didnt you say it went straight to hot?