Heat exchangers for a six, Who makes the best? Options

[Johny Blackstain]

I'm not 18 anymore & require heat in my car. I bought my six off the 914world classifieds 2 yrs ago & have found the car to be a blast, except in the winter. Very good for the air cooled engine, very bad for my bones. Obviously I have headers & I love the power, torque & sound I get out of them. I'd like to presume that the original heat exchangers were removed for the number 1 reason here on the East Coast... RUST & $COST$. I can live w/out A/C, but heat is a must. Suggestions? The six is sporting a high compression 2.7.

[PeeGreen 914]

It looks like they use the same headers as Triad west. I wonder if I could talk Dave into doing something like this only having the exchangers go down the headers further. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[IronHillRestorations]

These came up in a thread about a year ago, and I sent them an email asking if there were any welds inside the heater shells, to which they said "yes, but we haven't had a problem". Sorry, wrong answer. Porsche abandoned any heat exchanger with welds inside the heater shells back in the 60's when a few people died.

[iamchappy]

I would think a few well placed holes drilled into them could solve that problem.

[number6]

A follow-up response:

Yes we can make them in which ever size you wish but the 1.625 will
restrict the performance once you have super charged. The 1.75 will be
OK for the 3.2 as that is the size we make them for the 3.2 911. I
guess we could make them in 321 but 3o4 is just as good these days as
the arefazing 321 out and improving 304. We have real trouble getting 321.

Ian

[Eric_Shea]

Andy,

Whay I think Perry is referring to is having a weld on the pipe which resides inside the shells... not having the shells welded to the pipe.

If there is a weld that is contained within that fresh air shell, the risk of death has just multiplied expodentially beyond one that I would take.

Mr. Al; why not find some factory HE's and simply have them fixed. A decent welder can patch the shells and you'll be good to go? They can be had for $6-700 but they'll need work. Pipes are excellent and they're a perfect fit. Paint them with the POR-20 Manifold Grey and you'll be good to go for another 20+ years.

[Lavanaut]

If there is a weld that is contained within that fresh air shell, the risk of death has just multiplied expodentially beyond one that I would take.

Soooo...what exactly is the danger? Noxious fumes from the exposed weld, or...? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Root_Werks]

If there is a weld that is contained within that fresh air shell, the risk of death has just multiplied expodentially beyond one that I would take.

Soooo...what exactly is the danger? Noxious fumes from the exposed weld, or...? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Dis-similar metals, holes get corroded into the pipes and fumes get ported directly to you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[number6]

I have the stock HE's but have found that they dont work all that great with the turbo.

Chappy, what is the OD of the stock HEs? How is the smaller pipe affecting your turbo setup? Is it insufficient at high boost, or any boost level?

Do you think the stock HEs would be ok for a NA 3.2? If so, and you ever decide to sell yours, please keep me in mind! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-duc

[iamchappy]

Stock HE's will work with the 3.2 ok, i know there are a few on the board with this setup.

I think the stock pipes are 1 1/2, i have good low end grunt with the stock HE's but the turbo lag is horrible. With my headers i am building boost at 2800 rpms, and with the stock HE's around 4000, it hits hard and is still very strong maybe even more so than the headers up to 6400 rpms which is surprising to me.

[number6]

From Hayward & Scott, in response to my inquiry about welds inside the heat shells, as well as about heating performance:

They would have a weld where 2 bends are so close together that they
can't be made in one but the join is purged when welded so in other
words you get a nice neat strong weld on the inside as well as the
outside .The heat from the exchangers work extremely well as they are
basically the same size as we would put on a 911 3.2 ( i have them on
mind and they are very hot )and get very hot. If you look on a 993 they
are also quite small and work extremely well.

Hope this helps

Ian

[Eric_Shea]

what exactly is the danger?

If anything is wrong or goes wrong with that weld... what Dan said, you'll regret it for the rest of your life (actully, you'll just go out in your sleep and you probably won't have time to regret anything).

[luisqcosta]

you can always try the source for these exhausts!

http://cgi.ebay.de/Porsche-914-6-Paar-Waer...id=p3286.c0.m14



from germany! (how much would be shipping costs???)

hope i helped!

Luis

[morgan_harwell]

Does anyone here use the GHLs?
The heaterboxes on the GHLs look to be as large as the stockers (which will roast you!).

I'm planning to add dual Cats to my exhaust system. The GHLs would make that pretty easy, by removing enough of the rear pipe to fit the Cats between the collector flange and the /6 muffler.

[Dr Evil]

Hey Al, come April at the Hershey swap meet you can always find a set of stockers for $700-800. I had Root and John weld up a set that I was gifted right before I had them Jet hot coated. Cheaper and easier in the long run, IMHO.

[jim912928]

I purchased the GHL's however I don't know how they heat yet as it is part of my 3.2l conversion and I'm just at the point of getting ready to weld the RJ mount on my firewall. I have to say they were great to work with, didn't take long to get them and the workmanship looks great.

[Johny Blackstain]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) What a thread!

I just got back last night form replacing my throw out bearing & starter in my pick up... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif)

Today I wiped out in my Civic... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif). My fault- left rear tire was almost flat & I did not notice. Car kept pulling towards the left, I thought a caliper had locked up, since I had not driven the car in days, so I was trying to break it loose & slid off the road into a confield (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) . Damage was minimal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) as I write this.

E & Dr. Evil: I would not mind stock exchangers but I am very partial to stainless. I vividly remember riding around w/ my Pop in an exhaust filled 74 LE, which is why Pop parked the car & bought stainless exchangers in the first place. Now, w/ stainless exchangers & powder coated ducting, the heat is phenomenal in the LE. I would love to save some money, but have no idea what it would cost to repair & jet-coat exchangers. How long does jet coating last? I got a price from Ian for $2110.72US, including shipping. This was for 1.75" tubes.

[amallagh]

Johnny et al,
did you end up buying a set of exchangers from Hayward & Scott ?

I've been looking for a set of heat exchangers myself but haven't been too keen on the BB & GHL versions. Similar to yourself I liked the look of the Hayward & Scott version which seemed the most similar to the originals but in stainless. They also look like they should flow OK. After some searching I've found a couple of people who have them in the UK and the reports of fit, quality and heat generated are good.

I see on here it has been commented about the preformed bends that are welded together to make the shape (you can see the construction technique in the plain 911 header set also produced by Hayward & Scott in the picture below). Some strong comments on here about this being dangerous. I would agree with this for carbon steel manifold tubes but with the thick gauge stainless used in the Hayward & Scott items it won't rust anyway. Not a problem as long as they are welded properly to start with, which is easy to check. The gauge of stainless tube that they use means that they can't form the tighter bends so they use preformed bends and weld then together on a jig. This is a time consuming way to make them but they say they would rather do this than use thinner gauge tube.
I've added a couple of pictures below that I got from a guy who bought a set 8 years ago. The area of enclosed header pipe in the heat exchanger boxes looks only slightly less then the originals. And another comment I have had from someone who has a set is that the heat generated is equal to his originals that he replaced. The picture of the set bolted up to the engine helps to show just how big the boxes are.

The costs of the Hayward & Scott items was the main problem for me when I was been able to find BB or GHL versions in the US for less than $1900 when I looked 12 months ago. Now that the £/$ exchange rate has moved to where it is, then this is looking less appealing anyway. And presumably £1300 for the Hayward & Scott items is looking more appealing to your guys in the US. My loss is your gain !

Ian is prepared to offer some more discount for multiple sets. He offered me £1170+vat for 3 sets or £1105+vat for 5 sets if we could rustle up the custom. I hoped he would go further but I haven't given up yet.

I am interested in one set but need the price to be lower then the std website listed price of £1300+vat to justify it. It's a lot of money to pay for a few winter outings given you guys are kind enough to send a load of Gulf Stream water to keep us warm each winter ! Many thanks !

Ian said to me the other day that someone from the US had ordered a set and someone else was thinking about it. Anyone on here ?
Anyone fancy combining forces to get the best deal for all ?
I'm sure Ian would accept orders separately to keep things simple if we could just get a group together.
(Ian can do them in different diameters as required)
(IMG:http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/amallagh/914HeatExchangers1.jpg)
(IMG:http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/amallagh/New_Exhaust1.jpg)

[Johny Blackstain]

Johnny et al,
did you end up buying a set of exchangers from Hayward & Scott ?

Yes, I decided to go w/ the Hayward & Scott's & got a price of £1305.00 shipped. I ordered them w/ 1 5/8" tube diameter & 2.5" collector diameter. Now I'm just waiting on my order; should be 2 more weeks. Cost is high but I have no intention of ever selling the car & just want to enjoy it as much as possible.

[TedK]

Their website says 1500 pounds before shipping, how did you get them to give you that price? I must say those do look nice, I am most interested in this product.

thanks
tk

[number6]

Johnny et al,
did you end up buying a set of exchangers from Hayward & Scott ?

I've been looking for a set of heat exchangers myself but haven't been too keen on the BB & GHL versions. Similar to yourself I liked the look of the Hayward & Scott version which seemed the most similar to the originals but in stainless. They also look like they should flow OK. After some searching I've found a couple of people who have them in the UK and the reports of fit, quality and heat generated are good.

I see on here it has been commented about the preformed bends that are welded together to make the shape (you can see the construction technique in the plain 911 header set also produced by Hayward & Scott in the picture below). Some strong comments on here about this being dangerous. I would agree with this for carbon steel manifold tubes but with the thick gauge stainless used in the Hayward & Scott items it won't rust anyway. Not a problem as long as they are welded properly to start with, which is easy to check. The gauge of stainless tube that they use means that they can't form the tighter bends so they use preformed bends and weld then together on a jig. This is a time consuming way to make them but they say they would rather do this than use thinner gauge tube.
I've added a couple of pictures below that I got from a guy who bought a set 8 years ago. The area of enclosed header pipe in the heat exchanger boxes looks only slightly less then the originals. And another comment I have had from someone who has a set is that the heat generated is equal to his originals that he replaced. The picture of the set bolted up to the engine helps to show just how big the boxes are.

The costs of the Hayward & Scott items was the main problem for me when I was been able to find BB or GHL versions in the US for less than $1900 when I looked 12 months ago. Now that the £/$ exchange rate has moved to where it is, then this is looking less appealing anyway. And presumably £1300 for the Hayward & Scott items is looking more appealing to your guys in the US. My loss is your gain !

Ian is prepared to offer some more discount for multiple sets. He offered me £1170+vat for 3 sets or £1105+vat for 5 sets if we could rustle up the custom. I hoped he would go further but I haven't given up yet.

I am interested in one set but need the price to be lower then the std website listed price of £1300+vat to justify it. It's a lot of money to pay for a few winter outings given you guys are kind enough to send a load of Gulf Stream water to keep us warm each winter ! Many thanks !

Ian said to me the other day that someone from the US had ordered a set and someone else was thinking about it. Anyone on here ?
Anyone fancy combining forces to get the best deal for all ?
I'm sure Ian would accept orders separately to keep things simple if we could just get a group together.
(Ian can do them in different diameters as required)
(IMG:http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/amallagh/914HeatExchangers1.jpg)
(IMG:http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/amallagh/New_Exhaust1.jpg)

I'm pretty sure I'm the party "thinking about it" that Ian mentioned to you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
and I'm still definitely interested. Though I won't know for sure probably until the end of this month, as my car is still not yet back from the shop. It's the welds inside the heat shells that's got me nervous, which is why I've been thinking about getting a set of stock HEs and having them restored/coated. Not the ideal solution for me, since I prefer the larger pipes and stainless construction. I did recently take my car for a quick spin, and the B&Bs did make a little heat, but it's hard to judge in this not-even-cold weather. Guess I'll have to wait and see under real living-with-them conditions.

Al, please let us know how your new H&S's turn out! From what's written above, it sounds like you're going to be very happy. After you make sure the initial welds are good, I assume! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-duc