Type IV rebuild cost break down, literally, specifically... Options

[Gint]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) And not every motor needs the same parts that the last guy used. That's just another reason I'd like to see a few more itemized lists. Thanks Brer!

[Joe Ricard]

Well then I did Rob Waston's 2.0L
Heads freshened up with guides and valve job 350.00
86a cam and lifters 300.00
crank checked and poished journals 125.00
Flywheel resurface 50.00
(no balance of anything)
rods rebushed 75.00
Oil pump from CB
all new bearings
all new seals
6 spring sachs Clutch and pressure plate
You can find the price for the parts.
my labor came out to about .50 cents an hour.
That's about as cheap as it gets.

My 2098cc came to just 3K
Wasser boxer rods all done up with better rod bolts.
Lightened crank and flywheel (a lot) race balance
all the bearings
(all above was 900)
good used 98mm domed pistons and cylinders
CB oil pump
nice split duration cam 300.00 and new web lifters
re-used my 2.0L heads already done up nice.
6 puc Kennedy clutch and new PP
seal kit
Case full flowed cost lots of my sweat and sore hands

Carry overs from old motor
like I said heads
carbs
Tangerine
Mallory
vent cans and hoses
big ass oil cooler
and aero quip hoses

as the engines progressed some parts carried over to the Raby 2316-210 My power plant is easily 10K +

Bottomline it costs money to go fast.

[Jake Raby]

The variables between engines will make a thread like this, with such definitive points being asked virtually impossible to respond to.
Every engine is worn differently and these days you'll spend time and moeny "un-fucking"what others have done to the engine in it's previous lives.

Remember the old saying- if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.

Often times budgets are the creators of compromise and that can lead to total failure- no matter what engine you are working with.

[Rusty]

Mike,

Have you gone to Pelican's online store and built a wish-list for the replacement parts you're sure you'll need? That's a place I would start. Obviously, that won't help you with machine work costs.

IIRC, I think Dave Darling once wrote an article about this.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/914QA/914Q...ine_rebuild.htm

-Rusty

[Gint]

Bottomline it costs money to go fast.

I'm not trying to go fast.

The variables between engines will make a thread like this, with such definitive points being asked virtually impossible to respond to.

Remember the old saying- if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.

Often times budgets are the creators of compromise and that can lead to total failure- no matter what engine you are working with.

Not really.

I understand the points you're trying to make, but...

It's actually a pretty simple request for data.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear.




I appreciate the contributions to this thread. At this time however I'm not looking for 'what I should do' or 'how I should do it' or 'based on my budget' or other philosophical points about rebuilding a Type IV motor. There are tons of threads on this site about stuff like that. I could read them for days. In fact over the years of being on this site, I have read them for days. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This is what I'm asking for:

If you rebuilt a Type IV motor and have an itemized list of the parts, labor and machining operations costs, please post it here.

That's all. And thanks.

[MoveQik]

Hey Mike....since you aren't getting the info you want, here is what I will do for you. I am guessing I am going to need to have my motor rebuilt. I'll document every penny and just deduct two cylinders worth for you. You know me...I'm here to help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

[Gint]

Thanks Mike!

[DBCooper]

Remember the old saying- if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.

That's what JP Morgan responded when somebody asked him about his YACHT. That was a YACHT for god's sake, not a fricken Volkswagen motor.

[ericread]

Remember the old saying- if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.

That's what JP Morgan responded when somebody asked him about his YACHT. That was a YACHT for god's sake, not a fricken Volkswagen motor.

From what I understand, Jake has taken a viewpoint this he provides a premium product that is suitable for the street as well as suitable for racing. As a result, any attempt to reduce costs for his product serves to endanger the integrity of his build, so it's "my way or the hiway". If I were him, I would probably take the same approach.

For my use, I track every penny I put into my 914. As of today, the operating expense of my teener is $0.4462/mile. This includes purchase price of the car, professional wrench time, DIY parts, insurance, gas, oil and any specialized tools I have purchased in working on my car. I have had the car for 21 months, and have put 27,536 miles on it in those 21 months.

In order to self-justify my auto budgeting, I always ask the cost of everything. That I could afford something is secondary to my thought process. It really goes to can I cost/benefit justify what I am buying.

Eric Read

[Todd Enlund]

For my use, I track every penny I put into my 914. As of today, the operating expense of my teener is $0.4462/mile. This includes purchase price of the car, professional wrench time, DIY parts, insurance, gas, oil and any specialized tools I have purchased in working on my car. I have had the car for 21 months, and have put 27,536 miles on it in those 21 months.

I'm sitting right at ∞/mile (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[Joe Ricard]

It's really amazing to see the differences displayed here in this thread.
We all seem to be wired differently.

Me go as fast as I can and I'll sell my soul to do it.

Others, I have never thought of cost/benefit. Interesting.

My way or the Highway. Exactly why I like Jake.

[DBCooper]

Reminds me of the advice they give American tourists overseas. "Don't think, BUY!"

My experience has been that you're better off thinking. Ask questions, get answers.

[LarryR]

good luck on your endeavour

[ericread]

It's really amazing to see the differences displayed here in this thread.
We all seem to be wired differently.

Me go as fast as I can and I'll sell my soul to do it.

Others, I have never thought of cost/benefit. Interesting.

My way or the Highway. Exactly why I like Jake.

It really doesn't surprise me that much. In this group we have racers, concours weenies, garage queens, customizers, AX'ers, kids with their first cars and daily drivers. Each of us represent a unique segment of 914 owner world. In most organizations we would be each others rivals/enemies, but here we all work together to help each other. Kinda cool!

That certain vendors have a specific demographic (i.e. Jake), should be of no surprise eiither.

Eric Read

[Jake Raby]

Remember the old saying- if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.

That's what JP Morgan responded when somebody asked him about his YACHT. That was a YACHT for god's sake, not a fricken Volkswagen motor.

Thinking this is "Just a Volkswagen Motor" is the first mistake that many people make.

I solve the problems that are created by this mindset everyday for people all around the World.

[r_towle]

Remember the old saying- if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.

That's what JP Morgan responded when somebody asked him about his YACHT. That was a YACHT for god's sake, not a fricken Volkswagen motor.

Thinking this is "Just a Volkswagen Motor" is the first mistake that many people make.

I solve the problems that are created by this mindset everyday for people all around the World.

Its interesting that "just a VW motor" would turn off some people.
This is a motor first and foremost....a mass of moving parts that all work in harmony to produce power...really amazing technology.

I approach these motors as a finely machined puzzle. Each part can and does operate within specifications and it performs quite well.
You can replace these parts with better part, yes that is very true.
The original motor was designed and built for long life...at the time long life was 100k miles...today its 200k.

It is a VW motor. I am proud of that fact.
Its an amazing little design that can run on four cylinders, but also run on less than four...most motors (non horizontally opposed motors) cannot do this.

At the end of the day, this is a machine that pumps air.
The wear items get replaced if out of specification and you put it back together and it runs great.
IF you want more power
IF you want more reliability than the factory 100k design...spend money.

IC lighter pistons, and lighter parts will change the dynamic of the original 100k mile design...it will shorten the lifespan...or not. Camshafts, flywheels all come into play...
This type of modification is based upon opinion...very few 100k plus rebuilds are running around...very few.

At the end of the day, the cost of rebuilding a motor is really determined by the motor, the parts you are using and the amount of replacement you need to do on those parts...

Jake builds motors for a specific market.
I have yet to find a motor builder that rebuilds a type4 motor stock, does it well, and does it exclusively.
Only Jake works on the Type4 and that is no longer an exclusive thing...he does other types of motors because the market for the type4 is not getting bigger...its getting smaller. Old car markets do that...new cars are not being built.

I suspect that within the next 5 years the market supply of parts for these motors will start to become more and more difficult to buy.

It is a VW motor...proud to say that and proud it can kick the ass of alot of newer porsche motors at the autox...

Rich

[Jake Raby]

Jake builds motors for a specific market.
I have yet to find a motor builder that rebuilds a type4 motor stock, does it well, and does it exclusively.
Only Jake works on the Type4 and that is no longer an exclusive thing...he does other types of motors because the market for the type4 is not getting bigger...its getting smaller. Old car markets do that...new cars are not being built.

I suspect that within the next 5 years the market supply of parts for these motors will start to become more and more difficult to buy.

I'd like to make iit clear that even though I have created a division of my company that specializes in watercooled Porsche engines this will not impact the aircooled Type 4 work or product offerings at all.

All the same employees are working on the MassIVe program that have been in the past and doing so in the same facility, nothing has changed or will change there. I have added another 3500 square feet for the 996/ Boxster work and if anything the aircooled side of the house is benefiting from the additionof a chassis dyno as well as classrooms for our work shops that will be offered for both air and watercooled Porsche engines beginning Summer 09.

As for parts getting harder to find, thats not the case. We are continuing development of new components and that is alsi benefiting from the added capital of the watercooled division. We'll continue to stock the items that we have and work to make them better and more advanced.

Just for the record, before any assumptions are made- most people will never notice that we are no longer only working with the Type 4. I needed a new challenge.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 20 2008, 12:57 PM

[Ferg]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Glad this thread is staying on topic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[r_towle]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Glad this thread is staying on topic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I was trying to stay on topic, but I get carried away sometimes.

My point is simple.

There is a specification for each part.
Measure it.
If the part meets the specification, use it...this does save money.

I am amazed that a simple process of measuring the pistons and cylinder (which costs next to nothing to do, or even get done for you) is constantly overlooked and regarded as a waste of time.

Measure them and save money...thats all.
Pistons get re-used all the time in engines...if they meet spec.
Cylinders also can and should be re-used.
If the budget option is pistons and cylinders that break and are not within spec to start with, I prefer to make my existing parts meet spec.

Bearings are always replaced...currently they are cheap to do.

Parts will continue to be more money and continue to become harder to obtain, even with Jakes efforts. The 356 main bearing sets....go price out those and you will see.

So, to answer a portion of Gints original post....it really will come down to what you NEED to replace.
Bare bones is a gasket set and bearings and rings.
The rest is measured and inspected to determine what to do/what to buy.

I have done two bare bones motors...parts were 200-300 dollars and both still run.
I know the cars...they are no longer mine but the motors still run.
One was a type 4 bus...still ticking away.

For me, nowadays...I replace more, but I will still use pistons that are in spec...dont see a logical reason not to.

So, an itemized list or bare bones...motors still run.
New gasket set...$60.00
New Rings $30.00
New Bearings $100
Misc $50


Rich

[Gint]

Thanks again for the posts all.

Time for another (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) to see if we can flush out a few more itemized lists of rebuild costs based on an individual's actual Type IV rebuild experience.

And Happy Friday!