Type IV rebuild cost break down, literally, specifically... Options

[Jake Raby]

Try asking on the STF or my forums... More building goes on there than here :-)

[g911]

Very interesting thread. I'm not sure I totally agree with "in spec" reuse it completely. Combustion is a high stress environment and although that is what an engine is built for, heat cycling and age will take their toll. Just because an item is "in spec" doesn't neccessarily mean it will stand up forever. kind of like "new tires" manufactured over five years ago, may fail. I think Mr. Raby's attention to detail bares this out. Just my $.02.

[MoveQik]

So Mike....I see a lot of rhetoric here but I am still unclear what you are asking for. Are you wanting a complete itemized breakdown of all the parts, labor, machining etc of a 2.0 rebuild? If so, I have that. You should have just asked.

[Todd Enlund]

You should have just asked.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[Chris Hamilton]

Thinking this is "Just a Volkswagen Motor" is the first mistake that many people make.

I solve the problems that are created by this mindset everyday for people all around the World.

It is "just a volkswagen motor" though. The type IV has many inherent design flaws, and if it weren't required by many racing associations it would have been put to pasture long ago. The type IV has nothing close to the level of development and aftermarket support of the Type I.

My 914 has a type IV engine in it solely because the PCA requires I run a porsche engine and transmission, and a six is simply too damn heavy.

[Jake Raby]

The type IV has many inherent design flaws, and if it weren't required by many racing associations it would have been put to pasture long ago.

I could not disagree more.

Perhaps this statement would have some merit if ONLY the 914 could use the engine, but thats not the case today and hasn't been.

Most all development of this engine has been done for OTHER applications, like the Type 1 conversion, 356 and 912 as well. Most everything we have developed has been FOR another application and just happens to be equally beneficial for the 914 (in most instances).

The Type 1 may have a huge aftermarket following, but that has also been it's down fall since everything bought for the TI is made in China, with at best bottom flor level quality when compared to the majority of TIV parts made in the USA or Germany. Who gives a damn if parts are available if most of them are pure junk and compromise the engine as soon as they are installed?

This year we have created 17 TI performance engines (Just finished a twin plug 1915 for Herbie Blash of FIA fame) on top of the 25 TIV engines we completed. We work with both foundations and there is no comparison between the two.

The amount of Type 4 DTMs we have sold this year is in the triple digits, that means over 100 TIV engines were converted for use in something other than a 914 this year using our cooling/ conversion system alone.

Most everything we offer for the 914 is made possible by the dozens of engines being converted weekly all around the world. Don't base the current state of type 4 usage on just the 914-

This year we have sold at least one engine or engine kit to be assembled on every Continent except Antarctica and the only states we didn't populate with a kit or turn key at least once was Montana, South Dakota and Lousiana. I have a possible sale in Louisiana pending)

(Don't think for a minute this engine isn't popular, I have the statistics to suggest otherwise, because I love numbers and keep records on everything for purposes most would never understand.)



This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 22 2008, 01:24 PM

[pete-stevers]

again way of the topic ...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

jake ...why not let us know the break down of one of your typical engine engine builds for the sake of the thread

[Jake Raby]

Most people that are going to buy the parts to build a complete engine from us, just buy the kit. The list of the parts in the kit as well as the cost can be found here.
http://www.rdtlabs.com/porschekits.htm

The primary presentation explainiing the rest of the kit details must also be viewed to gain a thorough understanding of what the kit really is here
http://www.rdtlabs.com/Presentations/raten...files/frame.htm

The variables associated with cylinder head "rebuilding" can make the difference in cost of over 1K alone depending on who does the work, how thoroughly theyy do it and the condition of your 30 year old castings.

Most people spend equal or more than one of my kits to do a thorough rebuild of their engine with correctly rebuilt heads. Thats why I am continually told that people could have bought the kit for what they paid for a smorgasbord of parts.. That variety oof parts was not an enginnered and proven arrangement that was fully balanced, fully prepped with CR, valvetrain geometry and end play pre-set out of the box... They also didn't get BRAND NEW cylinder heads and they also have little to now support from the parts suppliers since they had to call 19 places to buy it all and no one knows what other parts are being used.

I was asked a question and I tried to answer it the best way I could, but I am sure I'll hear from some smart ass within the next 5 replies to this thread that doesnn't like my answers.

Anyway, its near impossible not to cut corners and do the job cheaper than one of my kits. if head work doesn't cost you 1K+ you are not doing the work as comprehensively as it demands to be.

As far as the engines I build turn key, everything is replaced except the case and crank in most all instances, some engines even get brand new cranks as well.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 22 2008, 04:35 PM

[DBCooper]

Jake, when you call people "smart asses" you're provoking, and then they tend to respond like smart asses. Just an observation.

[Jake Raby]

Smart asses will be smart asses, they will rear their ugly heads with or without provocation...

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 22 2008, 06:25 PM

[Chris Hamilton]

The Type 1 may have a huge aftermarket following, but that has also been it's down fall since everything bought for the TI is made in China, with at best bottom flor level quality when compared to the majority of TIV parts made in the USA or Germany. Who gives a damn if parts are available if most of them are pure junk and compromise the engine as soon as they are installed?

That's bullshit, and you know it. Does anyone offer anything like the claudes buggies competition eliminator heads for the type IV?

I can go to any number of suppliers, like Gene Berg, Autocraft, and Pauter for type I performance parts, where I'm not seeing hardly that level of support for the type IV. There is also a great deal of parts available from claudes buggies for engine accessories, such as the $150 1 5/8" header system for my type 1 which would cost well over a grand for any type IV car.

[DBCooper]

Jake, I give you a heads-up that calling people "smart asses" will get you a reaction, so you respond by upping the ante to "ugly" smart asses? Why are you trying to provoke a fight?

And could I point out something else? You say "all" T1 parts are from China, but not all the parts mentioned by Chris are made in China. And everything on that list is high quality, no matter where it comes from. There's lots of T1 crap from China, it's true, but there's lots of high quality things from all over, too. Lots more than for T4 engines. The customer gets a choice, and that's not a bad thing. Is it?

[Chris Hamilton]

Jake, I give you a heads-up that calling people "smart asses" will get you a reaction, so you up the ante to "ugly" smart asses? Why do you want to provoke a fight?

Because someone is wrong, ON THE INTERNET!

( reference: http://xkcd.com/386/ )

[Jake Raby]

The Type 1 may have a huge aftermarket following, but that has also been it's down fall since everything bought for the TI is made in China, with at best bottom flor level quality when compared to the majority of TIV parts made in the USA or Germany. Who gives a damn if parts are available if most of them are pure junk and compromise the engine as soon as they are installed?

That's bullshit, and you know it. Does anyone offer anything like the claudes buggies competition eliminator heads for the type IV?

I can go to any number of suppliers, like Gene Berg, Autocraft, and Pauter for type I performance parts, where I'm not seeing hardly that level of support for the type IV. There is also a great deal of parts available from claudes buggies for engine accessories, such as the $150 1 5/8" header system for my type 1 which would cost well over a grand for any type IV car.

If I thought it was bullshit I would not have posted it- its a fact.

Autocraft has made TIV heads in the past, Pauter still does and so does Scat with their split port heads. In Europe Engine Plus also offers something similar. I also have a couple of options that flow the same or better than a set of CE heads at full prep and if the price comparison is made at equal levels of prep its almost the same.. The prices advertised in the mags are usually "base models" and much cheaper than full prep.

And remember the C/E head only has SIX cooling fins and none of those surround the exhaust port. What good does making power do if the engine becomes heat soaked and that power level can't be maintained? Please compare apples to apples, but thats impossible with the Ti Vs TIV battle. I know because I have been fighting that battle for 15 years.

The TI stuff is dirt cheap because of volume... and the fact that hardly any of it is made in the USA, or Germany. Its all coming from Brazil and Mexico, and of course China and it's distributed generally by companies with low quality standards and sold to others that generally are also expecting low quality. Today the majority of TIV parts are made in the USA or Europe and remain excellent quality.

For every 1 TIV thats on the road, there are 100 Type 1s and thats been the way it has been forever, since the engines were new.... That can't be changed.

Today a much more streamlined group of Enthusiast exist that want something that can't be bought in a catalog for a dirt cheap price, thats why the majority of those I deal with are north of 50 years of age and are tired of playing the games. They have been around long enough to know that quality and low price don't go together and they are ready to just drive their damn car without worrying about issues that could pop up on a cross country drive..

Jake, I give you a heads-up that calling people "smart asses" will get you a reaction, so you up the ante to "ugly" smart asses? Why do you want to provoke a fight?

Never heard that figure of sepeech before?? if someone is a smart ass, I don't give a damn what they look like- I treat them all the same.

At any rate, maybe a smart ass won't pop up- maybe my statement kept them at bay... they usually pop up by now!

Didn't mean to piss anybody off.

[Chris Hamilton]

And remember the C/E head only has SIX cooling fins and none of those surround the exhaust port. What good does making power do if the engine becomes heat soaked and that power level can't be maintained? Please compare apples to apples, but thats impossible with the Ti Vs TIV battle. I know because I have been fighting that battle for 15 years.

I think you're gonna need to do a fact check there. Both the street eliminator heads and the competition eliminator heads ran wide open for 2000 miles across mexico in the La Carrera Panamericana and looked brand new afterwards, no heat issues. If there is a better heat test than that, I'd like to see it.

I don't see how this isn't an apples to apples comparison. Performance aftermarket heads can make or break an engine combination, and these are cheap and readily available from claudes buggies.

[DBCooper]

Jake, you said "everything bought for the TI is made in China, with at best bottom flor level quality" which is simply not a true statement. Where it's made is irrelevant anyway. If it works well and lasts it's a good part, no matter where it comes from.

And calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a "smart ass" to provoke a fight is a really smart ass thing to do.

I know, marketing, marketing, marketing. I know it works, but I still don't like it.

Sorry Gint, the way this is going I don't think you're going to get the answer to your question. And it wasn't THAT complicated a question...

[Jake Raby]

I apologize for assisting with the thread hi jacking that has occurred here. I will refrain from taking it further by responding to Chris or DB Cooper.

I will email a couple of recent customers and ask them for their price tallies for some simple rebuilds, it might give Gint some insight.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

I am doing another motor, a 105 x 82 = 2840, some of the prices are due to good timing & good shopping.

Crank new DPR 82mm 2.0 ltr jrl - $350
Rods Chinese 5.5" 2.0 ltr jrl's - $300
Cam Pauter $135
Lifters used Type 1 free, but had them surfaced - $15
Cyl's 104.9mm new from club member $80
Cyl's honed to 105mm $65
Pistons 105mm used $25
Pins Casidium $22.50
Rings JE new $32.50
Case machine work around $200 ish
Main, rod & cam bearing's & gaskets around $120

Heads, 2.0 ltr's the most expensive single item complete rework, about $600
Retainers used Ford $7.50
Springs used ford $4.99
Guides new C.H.E. $7.50
Valves Tit $10
Seats Exh Berilium Copper $10
Int seats, will have to have them made $?

Labor $1,000,000
Total $1,984.99

The Pistons,Pins, Rings, Retainers, Springs, Guides, Valves, Seats, prices are 1/2 of what I paid, since all this stuff are V-8 items, bought on Ebay, so still have the rest of the set for another build.

The DPR crank was bought several years ago, when the rod options were only the expensive one's other than stock, so they were not that popular, hence the reason I got it for a good price. The rest of the items were bought over time, knowing they would eventually be used.

Fuel system, Exhaust & Ignition, are not part of the engine build, so not included.

Some of the items are from other motors, and get moved to the new build, but the price was still paid at some point, but in my case the Total price is not the actual price for this build, due to the parts carried over from previous builds.

[DBCooper]

I will email a couple of recent customers and ask them for their price tallies for some simple rebuilds, it might give Gint some insight.

Thanks, Jake. That would help a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif)

[Dominic]

I'd like to see where the $$$ are spent for a Type IV rebuild. Looking for a complete price break down listing of each of the individual parts (or group of parts, ie. pistons) , machining, labor (if necessary), etc...

Someone has to have done a complete listing of costs during their rebuild. But I've never seen one on this site.

Here is what I spent to build my 2270cc engine. Most of the parts are from the Type 4 store and I started the project before the kits became available. Of course this is just the internals, this did not include any of the costs for my Exhaust, Induction, Cooling, Clutch ect.

LE 200 Heads $2100.00 Type 4 Store
96mm Biral Barrels $650.00 Ebay
96mm Cast Pistons $265.00 Type 4 Store
78.4mm stroke c/w crank $530.00 Type 4 Store
Type 1 Billet Rods 5.4” $340.00 Type 4 Store
Custom Camshaft $180.00 Type 4 Store
Modified Cam Gear $ 42.00 Type 4 Store
Manton push rods $ 52.00 Type 4 Store
Pushrod Tubes $ 25.00 Ebay
Main Bearings $ 52.00 Type 4 Store
Rod Bearings $ 22.00 Type 4 Store
Gasket Kit $ 45.00 Ebay
Rear main Seal Viton $ 10.00 EBS Racing
Cam Bearings $ 11.00 EBS Racing
Type 1 30mm oil pump $ 50.00 Gene Berg
Oil Pump Cover $ 10.00 Type 4 Store
Oil Strainer $ 12.00 Type 4 Store
Rocker Arm Spacers $ 25.00 Type 4 Store
.090” Cylinder Shims $ 70.00 Type 4 Store
Curil K2 Sealant $ 15.00 Type 4 Store
Curil T Sealant $ 15.00 Type 4 Store
Dirko Sealant $ 15.00 Type 4 Store
Camshaft Oil Plug $ 4.00 Type 4 Store
Intermediate Balancing $180.00 Type 4 Store
Machine work on Case $150.00 Local Machine Shop

Total Engine Parts/labor: $4870.00 (your costs may vary)