Someone pissed off Jake & Len, replicating LE heads Options

[CliffBraun]

No patent, no trademark, then no intellectual property

False!

I've been through this personally.
You can have a valid claim for "intellectual property" without a patent or trademark.

BTDT

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) Andy

Well, not to really argue this, but I assume you're talking about copyright, which isn't anything close to the issue here.

I also am curious about the fact that it now takes registration to view the original thread on Jake's site. I'm interested in more details, but do not really need another account.

Not to worry, I went to register and recieved this message... "Sorry, registration has been disabled by the administrator."

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

Yeah, this is the sort of behavior I don't really appreciate in a potential supplier.

Oh, Andy, I didn't mean to say you were, just commenting to make it clear for people concerned about the legal aspect of this. I happen to have actually read current US copyright law.

Edit: removed obvious snark.

[Jake Raby]

My forums have been closed to new registrations for 2 weeks now. We were seeing 500 spamer registrations per day and vbulletin doesn't have a "fix" for the issue yet and recommended that I kill registration while they work on a new patch.

All that matters is the fact that we have stopped this guy- ultimately that's all that matters.

[ArtechnikA]

FWIW - it's widely believed (a belief CMW continues to promote) that 'the' D-shaped port for Porsche (probably just 911, haven't actually read the patent...) cylinder heads is patented.

Article on CMW's D-Port Patent

Clearly there are forms of automotive industrial design that are protected and protectable.

Software duplication, CNC/CAM part cloning, and other intellectual ripoff techniques are just very poor form, practiced by the greedy and lazy.

[Cevan]

Not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to understand all of this since intellectual property is quite fascinating to me...

Jake is producing the heads based on the original Porsche heads with modifications he/Len have developed right?

Could Porsche have the same claim against Jake since he is making the heads on the CNC machine now?

How much does something have to be modified before its considered "different"...I believe a former boss of mine had this problem once when he tried to patent his idea, the patent office rejected it because it was "too easily modified" (I think that was the reasoning"

It is highly unlikely that Porsche still has a patent on the 2 liter cyclinder head. It would have expired years ago. It's free for everyone to copy.

[DBCooper]

Clearly there are forms of automotive industrial design that are protected and protectable.

Absolutely. But they're real innovations that "advance the art", meaning different and unique ways of doing things, and not subtle modifications of existing methods. Part of the "art" of getting a patent is convincing the examiner that what you're doing really advances the art. Subtly re-shaping a port wouldn't, while totally re-forming it into a D? Maybe? Evidently.

Edit: Funny, after writing that I went to the CB Performance site, because they used to sell a "mini-D" port head. It's not there, the port is extended a bit more and they're now called "wedge" ports. But a web search turns up hundreds of other "d-port" heads, modified and new, from lots of big companies. Evidently Pontiac was making "d-port" heads back in the Sixties. So that CMW patent may not cover what they represent it as covering, another little trick about "patented" products.

And yes, Andy, you're right. I was referring to patent related intellectual property and not thinking about other types. But if you just went through this then I'm sure your lawyer told you about good practice, always using that copyright phrase and using the TM symbol whenever you use a proprietary term. Those give you protection later if there's any doubt about origination. With mechanical innovations that good practice is a patent. If you don't have it, and if the item's been in commerce for a year without it, then it becomes public knowledge and there's no real protection.

Jake doesn't have a patent, or a patentable product, so this is really all about business ethics. Someone is rumored to be thinking about copying Len's good work. But head porting has always been art mixed with science. A CNC machine can get close, but like Len observed, it can't do it all. This is when good reputation counts.

[HAM Inc]

Just for the record, our LE-180 design (so named because the intake ports will flow a minimum of 180CFM @ .500" valve lift) isn't an exact replica of the 2.0 914 head. The chambers are, but the ports themselves have a series of minor improvements that I used to do by hand. We also modernized them with better seat and guide materials and 12mm plug bosses. They aren't reproduced with factory emblems or part #'s. They are a hybrid of Porsche and HAM innovations. They sell okay, but the big movers are the LE-200's. All LE series heads are under constant development for better materials, proceedures etc., but the LE-200's are where the total package sees development. Those heads are my playground, so to speak. I enjoy the tweaking and the never ending battle to make them better and more technologically advanced. That's why I said, copy away. The LE-200's that this fellow wanted to copy have already been superseded, anyway!

[Chris Hamilton]

Just for the record, our LE-180 design (so named because the intake ports will flow a minimum of 180CFM @ .500" valve lift) isn't an exact replica of the 2.0 914 head. The chambers are, but the ports themselves have a series of minor improvements that I used to do by hand. We also modernized them with better seat and guide materials and 12mm plug bosses. They aren't reproduced with factory emblems or part #'s. They are a hybrid of Porsche and HAM innovations. They sell okay, but the big movers are the LE-200's. All LE series heads are under constant development for better materials, proceedures etc., but the LE-200's are where the total package sees development. Those heads are my playground, so to speak. I enjoy the tweaking and the never ending battle to make them better and more technologically advanced. That's why I said, copy away. The LE-200's that this fellow wanted to copy have already been superseded, anyway!

I think in the world of racing parts this is typically the case, innovation is what keeps the copycats behind you on the track.

Anyone who has the confidence that they provide a superior service does not need to resort to legal tactics, because even if this guy copies them, he may not have the reputation to sell them.

[Joe Owensby]

Just for the record, our LE-180 design (so named because the intake ports will flow a minimum of 180CFM @ .500" valve lift) isn't an exact replica of the 2.0 914 head. The chambers are, but the ports themselves have a series of minor improvements that I used to do by hand. We also modernized them with better seat and guide materials and 12mm plug bosses. They aren't reproduced with factory emblems or part #'s. They are a hybrid of Porsche and HAM innovations. They sell okay, but the big movers are the LE-200's. All LE series heads are under constant development for better materials, proceedures etc., but the LE-200's are where the total package sees development. Those heads are my playground, so to speak. I enjoy the tweaking and the never ending battle to make them better and more technologically advanced. That's why I said, copy away. The LE-200's that this fellow wanted to copy have already been superseded, anyway!

I think in the world of racing parts this is typically the case, innovation is what keeps the copycats behind you on the track.

Anyone who has the confidence that they provide a superior service does not need to resort to legal tactics, because even if this guy copies them, he may not have the reputation to sell them.

I agree. Getting into the patent world is pretty messy and expensive. We recently spent over $3million in outside legal fees to fight a lawsuit by a competitor- all over something as minor as notches in a food tray. But, it was a $70million per year business, so it was worth the fight. We won, and ended up making the company that sued us pay the legal fees, plus we obtained the rights to their patent. A quick look on the US patent site, USPTO.gov for "cylinder and head and valve" gives 747 patents that include these terms. I would imagine if someone took the time to review all of these in detail, both the body and the claims, they would find about anything there is to do with cylinder heads. This is for patents that pertain to products or functions. Trademarks or copyrights are another thing, but are harder to enforce on things other than appearance.

Jake and Len have the reputation of high technology development, great customer support as well as good quality systems and components. This reputation will support their sales which will allow further development to keep them ahead of copycats. For example, my decision topurchase one of their kits was based entirely on good comments on the 914 world board, and I was well pleased with what I got.

I think it is also great of them to share tidbits of technical information on the boards to help educate us on issues with the type IV engines, items such as proper oil, head cracking issues, new engine develpments etc.

This being the Thanksgiving season, thanks guys. JoeO

[DBCooper]

Try the Google patent search, it's really good. Lots better than the patent office's ancient software.

[Jake Raby]

Anyone who has the confidence that they provide a superior service does not need to resort to legal tactics, because even if this guy copies them, he may not have the reputation to sell them.

Very correct, unless they are used in complete engines that could then be similarly prepared to some of our offerings.

I certainly agree with Len, that there are preparation aspects of the heads that can't be replicated but "confusingly similar" components could be created and that could be damaging.

What matters most is the processes were halted and now enough people are aware of the efforts that it'll be hard for anoyone to have a successful endeavor, even if they copied the heads, no matter what may go on in court.

Our following is large and they are loyal, due to that the people will be more effective than anything that can happen in court.

I am trying to create positive energy from all of this, especially with the Holidays upon us. In some ways having things copied can be the biggest pat on the back that can be given to a developer.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 26 2008, 10:36 AM

[r_towle]

Anyone who has the confidence that they provide a superior service does not need to resort to legal tactics, because even if this guy copies them, he may not have the reputation to sell them.

Very correct, unless they are used in complete engines that could then be similarly prepared to some of our offerings.

I certainly agree with Len, that there are preparation aspects of the heads that can't be replicated but "confusingly similar" components could be created and that could be damaging.

What matters most is the processes were halted and now enough people are aware of the efforts that it'll be hard for anoyone to have a successful endeavor, even if they copied the heads, no matter what may go on in court.

Our following is large and they are loyal, due to that the people will be more effective than anything that can happen in court.

I am trying to create positive energy from all of this, especially with the Holidays upon us. In some ways having things copied can be the biggest pat on the back that can be given to a developer.

I would agree with you that its a strong compliment to be copied.
The go to market model needs to be superior and a new start up would need time to gain market share and mind share.

This is how a lot of the high tech hardware companies work...very little is secret, companies change (buy and steal) employees all the time to gain knowledge...its really not a secret world full of unique ideas anymore...

In the security business the weakest link is the human factor....its cheaper to buy the information than try to steal it.

Its all about who has a more efficient go to market model...period.

The only way to stay ahead in through constant and continuing innovation.
If you have a patent or would like to become an IP company then that is a different business model.

I would suggest that instead of fighting directly, do look into IP companies that ALL THEY DO is baby sit IP and take a skim from any proceeds that occur as a result of legal battles... This is an industry unto itself.

The benefit of outsourcing this type of work is that you now have a specialist that is monitoring your trademarks, copywrites, patents etc 24/7/365.
This frees you up to remain totally focused on making a profit from your business.


Rich

[Jake Raby]

The only way to stay ahead in through constant and continuing innovation.

Correct.
We find it funny that the same day we found out about this we had just released the 5th Generation of the LE series heads with a new and more improved tool patyh and with enhanced structural integrity.

The heads the guy wanted to copy were only 6 months old, but were two generations behind our current offering.

[ONTHEGRIND]

You should have never created this thread...
If I was having some sort of problems last thing I'd want is it on the INTERNET..

[LarryR]

You should have never created this thread...
If I was having some sort of problems last thing I'd want is it on the INTERNET..

I would argue the opposite if you want to point out the culprit and discourage use of their products.

However, I have read every part of this thread and would not know the person to avoid...

[HAM Inc]

We find it funny that the same day we found out about this we had just released the 5th Generation of the LE series heads with a new and more improved tool patyh and with enhanced structural integrity.

The heads the guy wanted to copy were only 6 months old, but were two generations behind our current offering.

Yep... I just finished my lunch and now I'm about to bag up the first of the new generation LE-200's. Nothing Earth shattering, just a few improvements to make them tougher for the abuse that some of these heads are getting exposed too. I am proud to say that none of the LE heads produced to date have suffered a failure of any kind. These latest improvements should help keep it that way.

I have noticed that the torque generated by Jakes powerplants keeps inching up. That puts more strain on the heads... so the development must continue! These latest mods were done in part to prepare for the ungodly cams and spring pressures that Jakes roller cam development is sure to toss at them. I fully expect that he will push the limits with grinds that he knows won't see the public light of day, but are geared toward judging the integrity of the components (plus he really enjoys breaking things! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) ) If I can keep heads from coming apart in those conditions... well that should be enough for anyone, at least for nowLOL!

[ONTHEGRIND]

You should have never created this thread...
If I was having some sort of problems last thing I'd want is it on the INTERNET..

I would argue the opposite if you want to point out the culprit and discourage use of their products.

However, I have read every part of this thread and would not know the person to avoid...

I am curious to know how they were trying to copy the cylinder heads more then reading harsh threats..


How was heads being copyied did they digitize the cylinder head for production ?
A CNC cylinder head is only as good as the hand porter that is desinging the port right ?

[r_towle]

Not to change the subject, but I know both Jake and Len are reading this specific post...

This is a really interesting thread, I for one would love to hear your opinions on this discussion regarding valve adjustments.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=90307

Rich

[TJB/914]

Hi All,

I really enjoy these posts. Very interesting & informative.

Inquiring minds would like to know something for the record.

We hear about these LE heads (new) generation of improvements?? Is this based on dyno results?? Customer feedback?? Or failure rates?? I would like an explaination of the process so we understand these claims. This is not a criticism, but a technical question.

Tom

[ericread]

Not to change the subject, but I know both Jake and Len are reading this specific post...

This is a really interesting thread, I for one would love to hear your opinions on this discussion regarding valve adjustments.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=90307

Rich

Aaaaaarg. There be thread pirates lurking... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/skull.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif)

Eric

[Jake Raby]

Hi All,

I really enjoy these posts. Very interesting & informative.

Inquiring minds would like to know something for the record.

We hear about these LE heads (new) generation of improvements?? Is this based on dyno results?? Customer feedback?? Or failure rates?? I would like an explaination of the process so we understand these claims. This is not a criticism, but a technical question.

Tom

Tom,
The changes are made based on all things you have mentioned above. As we experience more and more and I test different engines with various changes that Len works on with the CNC tool path we find new powewr and new longevity/ reliability as a byproduct.

The changes from the first genberation of LE 200 heads to the latest are vast, but some of them are not able to even be noted by the human eye, and some of them only Len knows.

Len makes changes based on flow data from each batch of heads as well as the feedback and data that I supply to him as we assemble and ytest LE equipped engines. Thats where we have the winning team, we use what we are seling and thoroughly understand it- thats why when you had issues I found them hard to believe.

The overall goal for Len is to leave as much material in the port to support the seats, but also attain the best flow characteristics, this is what has been refined more than anything.

FWIW we have NEVER experienced a failure with any LE cylinder head, there are no "failure rates" at the present time. In fact I have never experienced a cylinder head related failure in the entire time that Len has been prepping my heads and thats including some engines that should have failed and some that were on the edge so badly that we expected them to fail.

There are over 150 pair of LE heads in service right now all over the World, to date we have had ONE complaint. ONE.

BTW- I didn't start this thread, as someone suggested above. i started a thread on my private forums that was migrated here- not by me.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Nov 26 2008, 01:21 PM