New Project: Grassroots Motorsports $2010 Challenge Car Options

[camaroz1985]

Just thought I would post up a quick picture of my newest project.

(IMG:http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh87/camaroz1985/914/PIC-0088.jpg)

Its a '75 that I will be building for the $2009 Challenge. There is no engine now, and I am still trying to figure out what I will be using.

I think about 200hp should be good enough if I can keep the weight down. I figure I have about $750 for engine and cooling system (or preferably a parts car that I can get everything from).

What do you guys think? What are my best options? Who has cheap parts they want to sell to help the cause (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'll update this as I progress.

[jimkelly]

if you use a non type 4 engine - you will run into conversion parts cost.

turbo and 1.7 type 4.

[camaroz1985]

I already have budgeted the $550 for the Kennedy adapters, and that is not included in the $750 i listed.

What kind of power can you get out of a turbo type IV, and how much will it cost me to get it. If i went that way I would have $1300 to spend, but would prefer to put more into suspension stuff. So what could I get out of one (plus the purchase of the motor) for $1000.

[r_towle]

I already have budgeted the $550 for the Kennedy adapters, and that is not included in the $750 i listed.

What kind of power can you get out of a turbo type IV, and how much will it cost me to get it. If i went that way I would have $1300 to spend, but would prefer to put more into suspension stuff. So what could I get out of one (plus the purchase of the motor) for $1000.

Serious question.

How long does the motor need to live?
Can you run on race fuel?

If you are talking about 4 drag races and 4 runs in an autox...then the car show I would say build a carbed 2.4 liter (71*103mm) and put it at 10.5:1 or 11:1 compression.
With heads at 46*38mm valves and the rest can be stock (dont yell Jake)

that will get you around 150-180 hp if done right..200hp if you have the right heads and camshaft.

It will be a tweeked motor that will run for the weekend.

I had a similar motor, 71*103 with 13:1 that dynoed at 209 hp...
Its a screamer and it lasted a season.

Rich

[camaroz1985]

For the purposes of the competition it only needs to last that long, but I would like to test the car before the event, and enjoy it afterwards.

I guess I never really considered the type iv I just assumed I would be swapping. If it is viable, and at least semi reliable (I dont want to be working on just keeping it running the entire weekend. I've been there and done that with FSAE in college (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), then I am open to it if the price is right.

[r_towle]

you wont be able to stay on budget with anything else...

You might be able to do a v8 for cheap if you find a free motor.
Radiator can be sourced from a miata, a watercooled bus, a toyota previa van, and a few others...they are small enough to fit.

The v8 may trash your transmission unless you rebuild it with the right gearing ($$$$$)

That is why I suggested a type 4 motor..

With the 914 transmission figure the drag race is a no win situation...unless you spend 10k on a tranny, it will blow.
Autox, type 4 will beat most cars.
Car show...all up to you how clean it is.
Rich

[ottox914]

I already have budgeted the $550 for the Kennedy adapters, and that is not included in the $750 i listed.

What kind of power can you get out of a turbo type IV, and how much will it cost me to get it. If i went that way I would have $1300 to spend, but would prefer to put more into suspension stuff. So what could I get out of one (plus the purchase of the motor) for $1000.

How long do you want/need it to last?

You'll need to hack/bend up some sort of exhaust and flange to mount the turbo. For a rat rod git-r-done type of deal, I'd move the battery to the trunk, and mount the turbo up in that area. The stock EFI will laugh at you then run lean and hole a piston, no way it can deal with positive manifold pressure. Doing this on the cheep, I'd do a draw thru carb set up. Its very old school, but should keep you under $2009. If the event is run in warmer temps, that will help you out, as the draw thru systems don't work well in colder temps. Since you can't use an intercooler with a draw thru system, I'd rig up a cheep water injection system to keep the charge temps down. The T-IV pistons have the rings mounted way up high on the piston, which will expose them to alot of the pressure of the boost when things heat up in the cyl, so keeping things cool will go along way toward keeping the motor together and the ring lands from cracking.

How much boost?

How long do you want/need it to last.

I've read on Jake's forums of guys running up to 20psi on stock internals, but the pistons don't last. And they have a ton of motor cooling and intercooling. And $$$ in the project. If you want it to last for exactly 1 weekend, and you're willing to take a 50/50 bet if it'll even last that long, go for 20 psi and let us know how far the pieces go when it scatters. Longer term use, shoot for 10psi, and if you want to push your luck, go for 15. If they run the autox before the drags, maybe run 15 for the cones, and bump to 20 and some NOS for the drag...

How much power will that all be? No clue. Never got mine to a dyno last year.

How much cost?

What are your options for the exhaust system? Can you scare up some tubing, cut and weld on your own, or do you need to farm this out? Lets say 100 in materials for tubing/flange material. 50-200 for a used turbo. Look for a small one, like the front or back turbo off a mitzu 3000gt, a 9B turbo. Another couple hundred for a side draft carb of some sort. If you're using the stock 914 fuel pump, a regulator to dial down the fuel pressure. $500 bucks and alot of imagination might do it, with some sharp shopping and lots of free labor.

With my built motor I'm looking to make 15psi, but also to make it for a good long time. I have no interest in dropping the motor every winter to re-re-re build it again. I'm building the long block around the idea of making the most airflow I can at low rpms so I can spool the turbo quicker, and let the turbo make the power beyond that. More interested in torque than HP. I'm running a 3000gt turbo, and on a stock 2.0 motor, boost started by 2500, was all in by 3500 or so, and pulled hard to the 10psi boost cut. If I make 200/200 at the wheels, I'd be pretty happy, but I'll build it and see what I end up with, and whatever that is, it'll be better than what it is now. I'd love to see 10psi by 2500, and 15 by 3500.

All this is very contrary to what I'm doing with my turbo car- stand alone ecu, ITB's, and now a boost friendly Raby motor, but for a fast ride on warm days for $2009 or less, I'd google up and research a draw thru set up, and spend more $$ on suspension and tires than motor.

If you're going turbo T-IV.

***edit: turbo T-IV forum: http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34

***edit: draw thru turbo on a buggy: http://www.smbaker.com/rail/monsterturbovw.html

[camaroz1985]

Ok so you think about $500 dollars shopping smart to turbocharge a type IV. I would also need to buy an engine, so maybe $800, and you don't think it will be reliable.

I'm still keeping my options open. I'm more familiar with the Subaru engines, but finding one on the cheap and making it perform is pretty hard (not impossible, but hard).

[Zaney]

I picked up a 2002 Subie 2.5L N/A engine and 5 speed for $600.
However, like some else said the $$$ is in the conversion parts!
Magic flanges $500, VW Bus axles $220, Bremar 2WD conversion parts $325...

And the beat goes on...

Good luck!
(look for sponsors) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[jimkelly]

good thread - http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=40733

it seems you can also supercharge a type 4.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2005/11/...red-motorcycle/

i agree - subaru power is great - high mpg and light weight.

search craigslist for used imprezas and legacys - they can be found cheap from time to time. ideally a fwd 5spd - so 1993 or earlier.

if you use the sub trans - you could weld the inner half of the sub axle assy to outter half of the 914 axle assy.

jim

[Todd Enlund]

I picked up a 2002 Subie 2.5L N/A engine and 5 speed for $600.
However, like some else said the $$$ is in the conversion parts!
Magic flanges $500, VW Bus axles $220, Bremar 2WD conversion parts $325...

And the beat goes on...

Good luck!
(look for sponsors) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

If I remember right, you can sell off parts to get back half your $2009, so your budget is actually more like $3014...

I'd be looking for a crashed Subie, take what you need, and part the rest out to get some money back into the budget. A Subie conversion done right is expensive, this one doesn't need to be done right.

You have a shot at the auto-x, but realistically, all you can hope for in the drag is to do well... so make it pretty for the concours!

[camaroz1985]

I picked up a 2002 Subie 2.5L N/A engine and 5 speed for $600.
However, like some else said the $$$ is in the conversion parts!
Magic flanges $500, VW Bus axles $220, Bremar 2WD conversion parts $325...

And the beat goes on...

Good luck!
(look for sponsors) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Yeah things will add up, but I might be able to do it cheaper. I have some connections in the Subaru world. If I can do without the magic flanges by doing what Jim mentions below (which I was just talking with my friend about doing), and the conversion kit if I find a FWD gearbox.

I am currently talking with a shop about sponsoring me. It will help with money out of my pocket, but anything I get for free or cheaper I still have to list on my budget at fair market value.

good thread - http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=40733

it seems you can also supercharge a type 4.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2005/11/...red-motorcycle/

i agree - subaru power is great - high mpg and light weight.

search craigslist for used imprezas and legacys - they can be found cheap from time to time. ideally a fwd 5spd - so 1993 or earlier.

if you use the sub trans - you could weld the inner half of the sub axle assy to outter half of the 914 axle assy.

jim

As I said I was just talking with a friend about doing just that.

If I remember right, you can sell off parts to get back half your $2009, so your budget is actually more like $3014...

I'd be looking for a crashed Subie, take what you need, and part the rest out to get some money back into the budget. A Subie conversion done right is expensive, this one doesn't need to be done right.

You have a shot at the auto-x, but realistically, all you can hope for in the drag is to do well... so make it pretty for the concours!

You can only sell back as much as you spend for a max of half the budget. It can still be done right for cheap, just not in the conventional way.

I am hoping to do well in the autocross. The drag race is only worth a small part of the total dynamic time (they add the autocross and drag time together to get the dynamic time), so there is very little room to make anything up there.

[Dr. Roger]

do these spin the right way?

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/978984320.html

probably get the engine for $900.

[camaroz1985]

What about a NA Subaru 2.5 with a FWD transmission. I can cut the axles to the 914 and Subaru, machine them and weld together (as was discussed above). For the engine I would use reground higher lift cams (from Delta Camshaft), shave the head for higher compression, run WRX injectors, and a high flow pump, and feed it with E85. E85 will work well with the higher compression and allow me to run more timing (using a piggyback EMS). It will also run cooler than with gas.

I think I can do this within the budget and make maybe 200-220hp.

[r_towle]

What are magic flanges???
Will they make me look thinner?
Rich

[Todd Enlund]

I am hoping to do well in the autocross. The drag race is only worth a small part of the total dynamic time (they add the autocross and drag time together to get the dynamic time), so there is very little room to make anything up there.

I didn't realize that was how they scored. Cool. I thought (actually, I didn't put any thought into it at all) they were weighted equally.

It can still be done right for cheap, just not in the conventional way.

What I meant is that it doesn't need to be a well sorted reliable daily driver. It only needs to run for a minute at a time, so a marginal cooling system would be okay, for example.

[Zaney]

Magic Flanges thanks to Porcharu (Steve)

[camaroz1985]

Thanks Zaney. I have seen those, but the price is nearly the price of an adapter from KEP. I woul just weld the two sets of axles together (Subie inner, 914 outer) to make it work for me.

And thanks Todd. I knew what you meant I was just kidding.

[Todd Enlund]

I woul just weld the two sets of axles together (Subie inner, 914 outer) to make it work for me.

That's what I'm talkin' about! Grassroots!

And I'd think that a Subie automatic would make the linkage a WHOLE lot easier... hell, you could just leave it in drive and have NO linkage.

If you are gunning for auto-x, be sure to budget for springs and swaybars. You could probably fab your own adjustable front swaybar. Weld the ends on after you install the bar. Might consider home-made coil overs vs. torsion bars, might save some $$$.

[camaroz1985]

Good idea with the front sway bar!! I was trying to figure out how I could fit one in with my budget (though there seem to be deals in the classified section sometimes).

With the Subie engine and trans I will probably have some extra money to mess with suspension stuff. I was trying to figure out if there was a away to convert the front to coils cheaply. Still running through some stuff in my head (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)