END PLAY HELP NEEDED, OK, I think I got it fixed! Options

[stephenaki]

OK, I finally picked up a dial indicator. So, I pulled the flywheel off and, as I expected, the guys that checked endplay for me only put one shim in.

So, I put two in per the book, torqued it down and dang! I have no play and I can't even turn the flywheel!

So, I pull one out and leave one in, .20mm reading.

My guess at this point is I need a whole new set of shims. I did some measurements and here is what I have.

Enplay with no shims - .49mm
shim 1 - .25
shim 2 - .31
shim 3 - .35

So my assumption at this point is that I need 3 shims that will not exceed .42 in total measurement. Is it safe to assume that the grease will also alter the measurement so I should look at getting 3 shims at .10, .15 and .15? This would give me an estimated measurement between .07 and .09 with grease.

Thoughts?

[craig downs]

You need to use 3 shims to get to between .004-.006 and don't use any grease.

[solex]

OK, I finally picked up a dial indicator. So, I pulled the flywheel off and, as I expected, the guys that checked endplay for me only put one shim in.

So, I put two in per the book, torqued it down and dang! I have no play and I can't even turn the flywheel!

So, I pull one out and leave one in, .20mm reading.

My guess at this point is I need a whole new set of shims. I did some measurements and here is what I have.

Enplay with no shims - .49mm
shim 1 - .25
shim 2 - .31
shim 3 - .35

So my assumption at this point is that I need 3 shims that will not exceed .42 in total measurement. Is it safe to assume that the grease will also alter the measurement so I should look at getting 3 shims at .10, .15 and .15? This would give me an estimated measurement between .07 and .09 with grease.

Thoughts?

According to Haynes you should have between .07 and .15 mm of end play. Using .15 as your target end play you need a total of .34. So yes you need new shims and you should have three. Contact Jake he can hook you up with new shims (this is what I did)

Incidentally my target was .006 inches.

Also do not use grease, only use oil

[stephenaki]

Thanks that is what I thought, sent a note to Jake. Also had Harald hook me up with a contact here in Germany about 15 minutes from me. I will see if they can also do the shims; I doubt it but it is always worth a try.

[Jake Raby]

We have a large assortment of shims..

I like .005-.006 for end play on most all engines.. I should get your message tomorrow if you sent it through my store. I actually took a day off today, well kinda.

[Cap'n Krusty]

No grease, no oil. The Cap'n

[charliew]

Don't know your whole story but you might want to replace the rear crankshaft seal while your there. You can grease it's sealing surface on assembly.

[stephenaki]

Don't know your whole story but you might want to replace the rear crankshaft seal while your there. You can grease it's sealing surface on assembly.

Yeah, I have new seals all around.

[stephenaki]

We have a large assortment of shims..

I like .005-.006 for end play on most all engines.. I should get your message tomorrow if you sent it through my store. I actually took a day off today, well kinda.

Jake,
yes, sent it via your store web-interface will call the store today when I get home from work. You should be open by then.

[Jake Raby]

Don't know your whole story but you might want to replace the rear crankshaft seal while your there. You can grease it's sealing surface on assembly.

DO NOT GREASE THE SEAL!!!
Using grease upon assembly of a seal is almost a 100% chance of seal leakage-

Most grease takes 4-700 degrees to break down, and it's density keeps lubricationg oil from penetrating the lip of the seal. When the grease finally goes asway from heat the seal gets too hot and fails before the oil that could keep it lubricated and sealed can be delivered to it.

Install all seals just as they will be lubricated by the engine, with standard engine oil. People put too much effort into using alternative lubricants for assembling the engine, including grease and other types of lubricant.

We use engine oil for ALL assembly, except the faces of lifters and camshaft lobes, if the oil will be in the engine for it's service life, why isn't it good enough for assembly?

Greasing seals is a big mistake and is made often.

[stephenaki]

OK, next question for everyone. Talked to one of the German connections down the road. Told him my measurements without shims were .49. He said that it should be at least 1mm without shims.

Now, I did not smack the crap out of the sucker with a rubber mallet when I did the measurments, I pulled and pushed very forcibly. Do I need to re-do the measurements and smack the hell out of the front and rear? Just want to make sure my measurements are accurate.

[Joe Ricard]

No need to smack. just use a lever to move the crank. You are torquing the flywheel bolts right?

[stephenaki]

No need to smack. just use a lever to move the crank. You are torquing the flywheel bolts right?

Yes, 80 ft lbs or 108Nm in my case since I only have a Nm torque wrench. I think I need a big lever...hmm, looks like I get to buy a new tool today!

[Joe Ricard]

Chicks dig a guy with a big tool.

[stephenaki]

OK, talked to Jake's guys last night and also rechecked measurements. .49mm without shims and the smallest shims they have are .24.

Here is my question, WHY 3 shims? If you get the endplay into tolerance with one shim why is this bad? Right now, the only way I can get the endplay into tollerance is if I machine the 'step' of the flywheel down by .51mm which will then give me a 1mm endplay without shims.

Someone smarter than me help me understand this please.

[Jake Raby]

OK, are you checking this with the oil seal in place??? This makes a BIG difference with some cases and some flywheels as the flywheel hits the seal and gives a false indication of the actual end play value.

When I have had the seal in place and had little end play, the numbers I came up with were almost exactly what you have..

Now: The reason for 3 shims is simple..

The outer shim nearest the flywheel spins at a higher rate than the other two, because it has a film of oil on one side of it thats being moved by the flywheel..

The outer shim nearest the main bearing is static, as it's film of oil is not radial, as its closest to the #1 main bearing. This shim doesn't spin much at all.

The center shim is there to spin at 1/2 surface speed of the outer shim, nearest the flywheel and a film of oil is between all the shims as well.

This keeps the shims from "cupping" and wearing prematurely from high surface speeds.

There have been instances where I had to use two shims, but in those instances the proper method would have been removing a specified amount of material from the flywheel's surface to allow for the 3rd shim and the desired amount of end play.

I'd be willing to bet that you have your seal in place..

remember: Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment!

Meaning I have been bitten in the ass by this before, it was long ago but I have never forgotten it.

The "step" in your flywheel should be around .319- .321, but cab be as little as .315 without issues. This should give you .038-.042 without any shims and without the seal in place!

If the seal is in place, (causing the issue) another procedure is in order that I'll dictate if necessary-

[stephenaki]

Jake,
Nope, there are no seals or O-rings in place. I double checked last night as I was talking to your guys Blake and Travis. I found the O-ring so took it out and re-checked. Still came up with .49mm endplay without any shims.

All seals were removed when the motor was stripped and, understanding the concept of getting end play correct first, I haven't re-installed any new seals.

At this point I am contemplating tearing the motor all the way down again to make sure I didn't screw something up on re-assembly unless you have any other suggestions.

Thanks for the tutorial on the shims, makes more sense but I am still wondering why the Germans only put in one shim when they were also reading the German manual. My assumption is they just read the part that said clearance must be between xxx and xxx and didn't read further to see the part about having 3 shims in.

Step was 7.92mm or .312"; based on your comment this is not a good measurement.

[Jake Raby]

I think I may know what you have done... Installed the #4 main bearing backward onto the crank... (small bearing)

Pull the fan hub off the engine and the seal, then see if the end play changes, shoot a pic of it and post it as well..

The only other variable is the flange of the #1 main bearing.

If you don't have at least .036 with no shims, you have an issue... Now you have to find it..

Did you have my assembly video to build from?

[stephenaki]

I think I may know what you have done... Installed the #4 main bearing backward onto the crank... (small bearing)

Pull the fan hub off the engine and the seal, then see if the end play changes, shoot a pic of it and post it as well..

The only other variable is the flange of the #1 main bearing.

If you don't have at least .036 with no shims, you have an issue... Now you have to find it..

Did you have my assembly video to build from?

Jake,
I don't have the fan hub or seals installed. I don't quite remember but did the #4 bearing have the dowel pin hole in it? I am coming to the conclusion that I will have to strip the motor all the way down again. Will try to get some pictures this evening and post them.

[stephenaki]

OK, stripped the motor back down; pictures of the assembly for Jake to look at; let me know if you need cleaner shots and of what in particular.

(IMG:http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj217/stephenaki/Porsche%20914/CIMG2983.jpg)

(IMG:http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj217/stephenaki/Porsche%20914/CIMG2981.jpg)

(IMG:http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj217/stephenaki/Porsche%20914/CIMG2982.jpg)

(IMG:http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj217/stephenaki/Porsche%20914/CIMG2984.jpg)

I plan on rechecking bearing positions and start re-assembly of case, crank and cam then check end play again. Yes, I will be cleaning things up again before re-assembly.