OK, I finally picked up a dial indicator. So, I pulled the flywheel off and, as I expected, the guys that checked endplay for me only put one shim in.

So, I put two in per the book, torqued it down and dang! I have no play and I can't even turn the flywheel!

So, I pull one out and leave one in, .20mm reading.

My guess at this point is I need a whole new set of shims. I did some measurements and here is what I have.

Enplay with no shims - .49mm
shim 1 - .25
shim 2 - .31
shim 3 - .35

So my assumption at this point is that I need 3 shims that will not exceed .42 in total measurement. Is it safe to assume that the grease will also alter the measurement so I should look at getting 3 shims at .10, .15 and .15? This would give me an estimated measurement between .07 and .09 with grease.

Thoughts?

You need to use 3 shims to get to between .004-.006 and don't use any grease.

According to Haynes you should have between .07 and .15 mm of end play. Using .15 as your target end play you need a total of .34. So yes you need new shims and you should have three. Contact Jake he can hook you up with new shims (this is what I did)

Incidentally my target was .006 inches.

Also do not use grease, only use oil

Thanks that is what I thought, sent a note to Jake. Also had Harald hook me up with a contact here in Germany about 15 minutes from me. I will see if they can also do the shims; I doubt it but it is always worth a try.

We have a large assortment of shims..

I like .005-.006 for end play on most all engines.. I should get your message tomorrow if you sent it through my store. I actually took a day off today, well kinda.

No grease, no oil. The Cap'n

Don't know your whole story but you might want to replace the rear crankshaft seal while your there. You can grease it's sealing surface on assembly.

Yeah, I have new seals all around.

Jake,
yes, sent it via your store web-interface will call the store today when I get home from work. You should be open by then.

DO NOT GREASE THE SEAL!!!
Using grease upon assembly of a seal is almost a 100% chance of seal leakage-

Most grease takes 4-700 degrees to break down, and it's density keeps lubricationg oil from penetrating the lip of the seal. When the grease finally goes asway from heat the seal gets too hot and fails before the oil that could keep it lubricated and sealed can be delivered to it.

Install all seals just as they will be lubricated by the engine, with standard engine oil. People put too much effort into using alternative lubricants for assembling the engine, including grease and other types of lubricant.

We use engine oil for ALL assembly, except the faces of lifters and camshaft lobes, if the oil will be in the engine for it's service life, why isn't it good enough for assembly?

Greasing seals is a big mistake and is made often.

OK, next question for everyone. Talked to one of the German connections down the road. Told him my measurements without shims were .49. He said that it should be at least 1mm without shims.

Now, I did not smack the crap out of the sucker with a rubber mallet when I did the measurments, I pulled and pushed very forcibly. Do I need to re-do the measurements and smack the hell out of the front and rear? Just want to make sure my measurements are accurate.

No need to smack. just use a lever to move the crank. You are torquing the flywheel bolts right?

Yes, 80 ft lbs or 108Nm in my case since I only have a Nm torque wrench. I think I need a big lever...hmm, looks like I get to buy a new tool today!

Chicks dig a guy with a big tool.

OK, talked to Jake's guys last night and also rechecked measurements. .49mm without shims and the smallest shims they have are .24.

Here is my question, WHY 3 shims? If you get the endplay into tolerance with one shim why is this bad? Right now, the only way I can get the endplay into tollerance is if I machine the 'step' of the flywheel down by .51mm which will then give me a 1mm endplay without shims.

Someone smarter than me help me understand this please.

OK, are you checking this with the oil seal in place??? This makes a BIG difference with some cases and some flywheels as the flywheel hits the seal and gives a false indication of the actual end play value.

When I have had the seal in place and had little end play, the numbers I came up with were almost exactly what you have..

Now: The reason for 3 shims is simple..

The outer shim nearest the flywheel spins at a higher rate than the other two, because it has a film of oil on one side of it thats being moved by the flywheel..

The outer shim nearest the main bearing is static, as it's film of oil is not radial, as its closest to the #1 main bearing. This shim doesn't spin much at all.

The center shim is there to spin at 1/2 surface speed of the outer shim, nearest the flywheel and a film of oil is between all the shims as well.

This keeps the shims from "cupping" and wearing prematurely from high surface speeds.

There have been instances where I had to use two shims, but in those instances the proper method would have been removing a specified amount of material from the flywheel's surface to allow for the 3rd shim and the desired amount of end play.

I'd be willing to bet that you have your seal in place..

remember: Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment!

Meaning I have been bitten in the ass by this before, it was long ago but I have never forgotten it.

The "step" in your flywheel should be around .319- .321, but cab be as little as .315 without issues. This should give you .038-.042 without any shims and without the seal in place!

If the seal is in place, (causing the issue) another procedure is in order that I'll dictate if necessary-

Jake,
Nope, there are no seals or O-rings in place. I double checked last night as I was talking to your guys Blake and Travis. I found the O-ring so took it out and re-checked. Still came up with .49mm endplay without any shims.

All seals were removed when the motor was stripped and, understanding the concept of getting end play correct first, I haven't re-installed any new seals.

At this point I am contemplating tearing the motor all the way down again to make sure I didn't screw something up on re-assembly unless you have any other suggestions.

Thanks for the tutorial on the shims, makes more sense but I am still wondering why the Germans only put in one shim when they were also reading the German manual. My assumption is they just read the part that said clearance must be between xxx and xxx and didn't read further to see the part about having 3 shims in.

Step was 7.92mm or .312"; based on your comment this is not a good measurement.

I think I may know what you have done... Installed the #4 main bearing backward onto the crank... (small bearing)

Pull the fan hub off the engine and the seal, then see if the end play changes, shoot a pic of it and post it as well..

The only other variable is the flange of the #1 main bearing.

If you don't have at least .036 with no shims, you have an issue... Now you have to find it..

Did you have my assembly video to build from?

Jake,
I don't have the fan hub or seals installed. I don't quite remember but did the #4 bearing have the dowel pin hole in it? I am coming to the conclusion that I will have to strip the motor all the way down again. Will try to get some pictures this evening and post them.

OK, stripped the motor back down; pictures of the assembly for Jake to look at; let me know if you need cleaner shots and of what in particular.









I plan on rechecking bearing positions and start re-assembly of case, crank and cam then check end play again. Yes, I will be cleaning things up again before re-assembly.

I see the issue... Or at least I believe I do, based on these pics.

Get me closer pics of the #3 main bearing from different angles.. (the one behind the crank gear)
Also see if there are any signs that the bearing face has contacted the gears.

Do the same with bearing #4, the small one.. Pull the crank out and see if the bearings are damaged.

That assembly lube looks like Moly grease.. please tell me it isn't...

Per your request...
I didn't see any indication that the bearings contacted the gears, I took several pictures and spun the bearings around so you can see all sides of it. I also took a picture of the case where the #4 bearing sits; it looks as if some metal was chipped off the surface. I am not familiar enough with this type of motor to know if this is an issue or not.

Let me know if you want me to take this to PM or would prefer this venue so all can learn from my issues.

OK, nothing jumped out at me in the pics.

Drop the assembly back into the case half and align the dowels in the mains. Stick on the flywheel and use a feeler gauge to measure the end play present with no shims. Pull the assembly fully back in the case (toward the flywheel and take some pics of each bearing...

We will find this.

It might be that it has been too long since I had a T4 engine apart and I don't remember well but...

In the first set of pictures you post it looks like the #3 bearing is not positioned correctly. It look like the bearing is off set closer to the crank gear than it should be and I expected the oil hole to be positioned up higher. I would expect the bearing to be centered on the bearing web of the case. The only way the bearing could be out of position is if there is no locating dowel pin for #3 bearing.
In the second set of pictures I would expect to see at least some minor scuffs or scrapes from the dowel pin on the #3 bearing near the locating hole and I don't see any. It also looks like the gear side of the #3 bearing is shiny like it had been rubbed by the gear.
Do you have a picture of the dowel pin in place for #3 bearing?

Good luck.
Jim

I finally got around to re-checking and doing what Jake wanted and your right Jim, there is no dowel pin in the #3 bearing position! Definitely an issue.

Now Jake, per your instructions; dropped the crank back in, attached flywheel; slid all the way forward and checked with feeler gauges. I was able to combine a .635mm/.025" and .508mm/.020" feeler gauge and get it between the flywheel and crank. No slop, tight fit that enabled me to push them lightly into place and pull them out with minimum effort. Combined measurement of 1.14mm or .045mm.

So this is obviously good however, no dowel pin in #3 is not good; would this affect endplay? Truth be told, I am really glad I tore the motor back down again.

Thoughts? Do you by chance have any extra dowel pins? And while your at it, the rocker arm nuts for the valve train are M7 correct? I am missing a nut for one of the rocker arms and I can't find any M7 nuts here. Do you have any?

Here are the pictures you requested; I forgot to get a picture of the #4 bearing with the crank slid all the way forward. If you need me to get one let me know.

It could affect the end play if the bearing was off center enough that the crank gear was contacting the #3 bearing before the crank contacted the thrust surface on the #1 bearing. Essentially #3 would be serving as a thrust bearing limiting the end play. I don't know if I have a bearing dowel pin but I will look (I should, had enough engines apart over the years).

I can't comment on the pictures, at work our Internet filters block all photobucket links (lots of sites are blocked). It is a bit of an irritation to me when images are linked but I can see them from home.

Take care
Jim

WOOHOO! BACK IN BUSINESS! Got some dowel pins the other day from Travis at Type IV and put the missing one in last night. Installed a .24 and .30 mm shim and torqued the flywheel down.

Took out the dial gauge and...wow, that made a difference! Measurement with 2 shims came in at .49mm. I have one shim left that measures in at .34 which, once installed would give me .15 which is still .02 out of tolerance.

So, my thoughts are install the .24 and .34 and then pick up a .36mm shim for the third shim which will put me into the .09mm range which is well within tolerance.

I have a local source here that I can get the shims and will see if I can pick them up this week. Saturday, after recovering from Fruehlings fest , I will clean up the motor and begin re-assembly again. The goal is to get the motor completely put together by the end of the weekend. Hmm, that sounds familiar, maybe this time I will 'git r done!'

OK, talked to Travis at Type IV and sent him an email, here is what I sent, anyone else have any ideas what could be causing this?

Installed the dowel pin in #3bearing position and got the crank in all lined up with all dowel pins and double checked. Put in two shims and got too much endplay as opposed to the too little that I had a problem with due to the missing dowel pin.

Took out all shims, re-torqued the flywheel down and spun it to TDC, then BDC then put TDC mark on left bank and right bank sides and measured here is what I got. All measurements are in millimeters.

TDC - .45 (applying pressure to plate and holding in place)
.32 (no pressure applied to plate, basically pushed it in then released the pressure)

BDC - .63 with pressure
.49 no pressure

TDC mark facing left bank and then right bank were the same, 1.11 mm.

The crankcase is assembled and torqued, cylinders, pistons and heads are also assembled on the case and torqued to specs. Nothing else is assembled or installed.

I just wanted to say that although I don't yet have the intestinal fortitude to tear into an engine, I am always amazed to see how far Jake will go to help total strangers with his valuable knowledge and time!

THANKS JAKE!

These kind of threads are great learning experiences for the lookie-loos, as well as the hands on guys!

Unfortunately, Jake was heading to a race so it may be a bit. I was thinking about the issue and trying to find some info on too much endplay on the web. A couple of VW sites mentioned spun bearings, another site mentioned dowel pin wallowing in the case hole.

I don't think the bearings are spun but the #3 dowel pin bearing did fit pretty sloppy; would this effect endplay and, more importantly, does this mean the case is now toast and I need a new one?

You need three shims, not 2! The shim at the flywheel spins at crank speed, the one at the bearing doesn't spin and the one in the middle acts as a bearing so that can happen. Good luck.

John,
Yes, I know this however, you use 2 shims to determine what size the 3rd shim should be. Based on measurements the difference was too large to be made up by the largest shim made.

On a positive note, I will pick up a complete case and all the internals from Boxter motors tomorrow as he had an unused 1.7 case in his other warehouse. I will have to strip it down and pull the internals but I will have a new case to check endplay with. I am hoping the 'sloppy' dowel pin is the issue and this new/used case doesn't have the slop and solves the problem. Wish me luck.

OK, I finally think I got this thing beat! I picked up a new case from Boxter, got it cleaned up and prepped for the internals. I tore down the other case and pulled the internals out yesterday then took a break from work (yes I'm working today and all friggin weekend!) and shot home to put the internals in the new case.

Pulled the crank and cam, prepped the new case, popped in new dowel pins, lined everything up and marked it when I dropped in the assembly, put the cam shaft in then sealed up the case and popped on 2 shims .24 and .32mm respectively.

Measured endplay and came up with .46-.49 all the way around. Good to go, took off the flywheel and popped in three shims; .32, .34 and .34mm. Re-torque the flywheel and I came up with .17 all the way around.

Doing the math, if I pop in 3 shims at .36mm a piece that should put my endplay at about .09 which is well within tolerance. So the slop in the #3 bearing dowel pin was the issue.

I will take the case halves to a local machinest on Monday and have him clean it up as well as put in a new dipstick tube as this case had a broken tube. I did some searches on the forum about it but the case has sat so long I didn't want to screw around and make it worse. I will let a professional fix this minor issue so it doesn't become a major one. I will probably take the old case to him and have him see if he can pull the good tube on the old case and use it.

If I can get everything back by Wednesday then I can have the motor put back together and over to Christoph before Saturday which means it will be ready for me when I return from my ride up to Scotland on the 10th. This would make me and the wife happy. Cross your fingers on this one!