Water cooling issues on my v8 conversion, New problems Options

[JRust]

Okay so I have a buick 215 v8 in my 70 914. I originally had overheating issues when I bough the car. Bad radiator setup overall. I then bought Renegades radiator setup in september. Just putting it in I had no heat issues when driving. That was mainly all hwy & I could hardly keep the motor warm. Weather was cooling off here then. It would warm up in town though. My fans would kick on at 190degrees like clockwork. Then parked for winter basically.

Finally started driving it again on nice weekend days. Again great on the hwy but would heat up in town. Never hit 200 according to my temp gage. Fans would come on at 190 still. Well I got to driving a little more in town & my temps started creeping up again. I called Steve at Renegade for some direction (Very helpful folks by the way. I've talked with him again since & he is always helpful). I had my cooling lines running thru my heater ducts. He says my water pump is working to hard trying to move all the water. Rerun your lines under the car & it will cut off the peak. Also it will make your lines shorter. All of which will make it easier on your water pump.

Sweet! So I get gates green stripe radiator line in 1 1/4 inch. I run my lines under my car in the recesses & hook everything up. Now my engine gets hot while my radiator stays cool. That was when I called Steve again. He gave me a few things to check. 1st was if I had my lines hooked up right. I say heck yes I am sure I got them right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Okay so I had them backwords. I get them right & start burping the system again. Still have the same issue. Okay so next on hte list is to pull my thermostat (probably stuck). Makes sense except I forgot I didn't put a thermostat in. Not only that but when I unbolt it to find one not there I also find no water there.

1. Do I just have a big air pocket I am not getting out?
2. Is my water pump not pumping out enough water? I do have a great view of the belt turning it just fine
3. What the hell do I do next?

Sorry this is so long (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) . AS usual my simple things before WCR are not so simple. Help (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[andys]

It sounds like you didn't get all the air out of the system. It's not always easy to do and can be frustrating. I like to fill then momentarily pull the top radiator hose till coolant comes out; refill and repeat as required. I assume you have some sort of header tank as the highest point in the system; if not it's one of the fundamental requirements for success. By all means, do run a thermostat. I believe Rennegade reccomends drilling three small holes in it (for their sbc stuff). I would think they went through all that with you, no? Got photos of your cooling setup?

Andys

[jaxdream]

I agree with the andys on the thermo , I put a radiator and thermostst in a 97 intrepid last year, what bbbb , therom had hole at top with a bb in it for air burping still , spit out about $15.00 worth of antifrezze.Took top hose off , poured frezze dow it til it filled , took thermo and housing off , filled it there also up to top , put back together , let run for a bit air burped out ok ,been running good since.Try the fill from thermo side , and maybe hose to rad till it comes out back at the engine. Good luk , they can be hair pullers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) , but thats a part of em.

Jaxdream

[rick 918-S]

Need more info. First, yes run a T stat. Drill a small hole in the face. This will allow trapped air through. Also check to see you didn't loose the pump impeller. Do you have circulation? How do you know. Do you have a temp gauge in the front on the radiator and one on the engine at the rear?

What does your front cut outs look like? Are you getting enough air out of the front trunk or trapping hot air in the trunk?

[Sleepin]

Definetly sounds like an air bubble Jamie! You might consider jacking up the rear of the car (if you can get the water pump above the radiator). Then pull the hose off of the pump and keep filling until the air works it's way out. If that don't work, you can try it the other way and jack up the front of the car.

I don't have any experience with a 914 setup, have burped a few Chevys though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[computers4kids]

I spoke to Jamie earlier. When he pulled the thermostat housing he said there was no water, although he has filled and burped the system several times. I suggested there might be a large air pocket in the engine preventing the water pump from drawing and pumping...seems like it may need to be primed. I suggested filling the engine with water via the thermostat housing, cranking the engine and fill until till topped off. Not sure where Jamie is now on this.

He did crank the engine with the thermostat off and didn't get any water out the thermostat.

[drive-ability]

Need more info. First, yes run a T stat. Drill a small hole in the face. This will allow trapped air through. Also check to see you didn't loose the pump impeller. Do you have circulation? How do you know. Do you have a temp gauge in the front on the radiator and one on the engine at the rear?

What does your front cut outs look like? Are you getting enough air out of the front trunk or trapping hot air in the trunk?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I don't buy the hard working water pump crap, Its a pump, a strong one at that. if you don't have a T-stat your pump is likely fine, that's to say you didn't bend the fins. You likely have a combination of things now that you have changed out the lines. Air pockets can be a pain to move, every time I drain my system I will get a air pocket and you need to burp it out.. I would evaluate the exhaust cut-outs (need to be good size) and make sure your fans are turning correctly, that is voltage polarity and fan blade orientation. One other basic thing, your fans are being fed what they need, lots of amperage via wiring and alternator. I run my lines through the heater ducks and run a 200 amp alternator.

[TC 914-8]

Hi Jamie,

My rod Simpson kit has instructions on how to fill the system. i'll have to dig them out, but... I remember reading something like disconnect the supply line to the radiator at the engine. connect a garden hose and turn it on. Water then flows thru the radiator, back to the engine, forcing all the air out of the system and block. Now, if the engine is running when doing this is another story, I can't remember. Once all the air is out of the system drain out a half gallon or so from the line going to the radiator, refill with 100% antifreeze. This should give you a good 50 / 50 mixture. Connect your line back to the engine and run it, topping off the system at the over flow.
assuming you have bleed ports and fill points at the highest point this thould give you a head start.

The point of drilling a hole in the thermo stat is a good one, helping bleed the air thru the system when the stat is cold.

Give me a call if you need me to dig up the Rod Simpson paper work, the Renegade folks should be your best bet and a good source since you have their radiator set up, plus they live in 120 deg all year long. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif) a hot day here is 74deg. My fan relay stuck on the other day and my temp gauge was reading 110, I had to pull over and check it out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) till I banged on the relay, then it went back up to 180 once the fans shut off.

Lots of luck,

Tony

Tony

[JRust]

I think it is probably just air. I kind of gave up on it earlier tonight. It had pissed me off enough for the week. I'll try a few of the suggestions tommorow. I'll get water flowing thru everything tommorow or use gas & torch the muther phuker. Just kidding! I'll get it worked out eventually. Probably better I don't have a pro here with me. This way I will definately know & remember how to do it next time. It's all good just got a little pissy with it earlier. I'll get an update tommorow when the fire dept comes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Bruce Hinds]

I agree with all the Trapped air discussion. Specifically, the hoses from the water pump to the block if you have the remote located pump are notorious for trapping air.
The thermostat hole too, for the chevy they make a high flow version that has holes around the flange. I found this to work really well. Seems with the long run of narrow hoses you get lots of temp changes during different driving conditions and the HF stat seems to dampen those changes.

Also if you disconned the system again... just make sure the pump is pushing water. At one point over the years I had an impeller failure, I think it was spinning on the shaft and would only push water while not under pressure.
B

[JRust]

Okay so I discinnected the top hose on my radiator. The connected my garden hose to the top hose. Then I turned on my hose & just let the water flow thru my system. It only took a second for water to come out of the top of my radiator. I let the water just flow thru my system for a bit. I was outside & the water coming out was no problem. I fill both the radiator & hose as full as they will go & reconnect them. Then I proceed to start burping again. I let it run for a minute, shut it off, open the top petcock on the radiator & just get air coming out. I close it & do it again. Same result. Then I notice some water leaking by my water pump. I figure a hose is loose. Nope I managed to cross thread one of my bolts on the thermostat cap going to the motor. So it wasn't tight & the phucker broke (the bolt)when I went to take it out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) It was a little tough going in but not bad. Came out a little tough originally so I wasn't to worried (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) .

At least it's sunny outside. Nice day for a ride into the auto parts store (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I'm batting a 1000 so far. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[drive-ability]

Okay so I discinnected the top hose on my radiator. The connected my garden hose to the top hose. Then I turned on my hose & just let the water flow thru my system. It only took a second for water to come out of the top of my radiator. I let the water just flow thru my system for a bit. I was outside & the water coming out was no problem. I fill both the radiator & hose as full as they will go & reconnect them. Then I proceed to start burping again. I let it run for a minute, shut it off, open the top petcock on the radiator & just get air coming out. I close it & do it again. Same result. Then I notice some water leaking by my water pump. I figure a hose is loose. Nope I managed to cross thread one of my bolts on the thermostat cap going to the motor. So it wasn't tight & the phucker broke (the bolt)when I went to take it out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) It was a little tough going in but not bad. Came out a little tough originally so I wasn't to worried (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) .

At least it's sunny outside. Nice day for a ride into the auto parts store (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I'm batting a 1000 so far. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

If this doesn't happen a number of times your not really a 914 owner.
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[JRust]

Okay so in order to drill out the bolt I pulled my manifold completely. The way my distributor sits & trying to do it in the car just didn't work. The upside was I can see some of my water flow problems. The front port on both sides of the manifold were close to blocked with all the silicone they used when they put it on. So that was the bright spot in needing to pull the manifold. I've got it all back together without a thermostat for know. I do plan to put a t-stat in but I'm going to eliminate that as a problem for now.

The down side is I pulled my distributor & although I am sure I got it back in right. I disconnected all my plug wires too. I should have marked them as they don't match what my manifold says. Feels like I am off on my order. Not a huge deal & I can actually figure that one out. Just taking a break right now. I'll screw with my timing tommorow.

I also got my rear caliper rebuilt today & am going to put it back in tonight. Then bleed my brakes. I am making progress & feel good about being ready for WCR. Once I got over my initial pissiness with my cooling woes. Once I am done I should have the cooling on my car down pat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Todd Enlund]

Go, Jamie Go!

Man, it's getting down to the wire...

[TC 914-8]

Whoa Man, It's deja' vu all over again, Not to bring back bad memories.

Good luck, be patient, and drive it for a couple of days before heading south.

Put in a good word for me at the WCR So Cal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[JRust]

Done deal Tony. Sorry we won't be seeing you there. I doubt I am going to have alot of seat time before we leave. Still I should manage a good day or 2. Barring me screwing something else up that is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[marks914]

Once you get everything back together:
Do you have an overflow tank? This self-burps the system (see image)

I was having some cavitation issues, the car would get hot, I would turn on the heater, making coolant flow through the heater core, and the temp would immediately drop. I would then turn off the heater and everything would be fine.

What I did to eliminate the caviitation and/or air in the system from getting caught in my water pump is install a coolant crossover. I have a 3/8 inch line going from my heater outlet on the block back to the inlet on the water pump. You will notice that the block on the SBC has a provision for this on the water pump atachments. (the hose adapters on the front of the blck has one long extension covering the hole on the pass side below the fitting). This weep hole allows coolant to continuously flow through the pump, preventing cavitation and air from getting stuck in there, keeping coolant moving.

Mark
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[andys]

I found that on my Ford Explorer that I will never get the coolant to flow (after re-filling) without pulling off the heater hose at its highest connection point to allow the air to purge out. Without doing that, there's no hope of getting the coolant to flow.

Let's see some of those photos; with all the V8 folks here I'm sure we can get you through this.

Andys

[Dr. Roger]

i'm with andy's on this one.

i had a similar experience with my V8 setup.

did you say you have a renegade water pump? meaning a pump running off a pulley at crankshaft level? or a remote like mine?

the height makes a difference in burping procedure IMHO.

[JRust]

Here are a few pics. Just a stock mechanical pump. I wanted to go to a remote as the stock one sticks out so far. I'm actually more worried about getting my firing order & timing figured out today. I think I've got the burping procedure down pretty good now. I didn't get to bleeding my brakes last night so I am doing that in a minute. I went & bought timing light as I didn't have one. Yeah back to the garage I go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)