Need transmission problem diagnosis..., Or best guess Options

[Porsche Rescue]

Started my '70 tail shifter this morning, attempted to engage reverse and heardf/felt a horrible grind (kind of like the clutch pedal was not depressed, but it was). Quickly returned to neutral and tried again. I engaged reverse OK and backed out of the garage. But I heard a grinding/growling noise while moving and felt the sensation of something restricting movement (like brake on, but it wasnt'). Moved it back and forth in the driveway in all gears. It makes the same noise in all 5 forward gears as soon as I release the clutch. Reverse now seems almost OK.

Where do I start? Could it be a linkage issue (the front two bushings were new a few months ago)? It shifts smoothly when clutch pedal is depressed. Is something broken in the tranny? All opinions welcome.

[Cap'n Krusty]

Jack it up, put it on stands, loosen the fill plug, then drain the gear oil. Now. See what comes out. Report back. The Cap'n

[Dr Evil]

Sounds like you have a clutch tube or other clutch related problem. Reverse grinding is a good indicator that the clutch is not fully disengaging. R does not have a synchro band and tooth set up like the other gears and so needs the clutch to be fully engaged to relieve force on the moving components. The other gears grinding support this diagnosis, but alone would not only do so.

I would check the following:

1-Clutch pedal disengagement; it should disengage in the 1st 1/3 of travel

2-Adjustment nuts at the end of the clutch cable. They can move if not double nutted. Can lead to #1 changing

3-See if you can wiggle your clutch for. If there is a lot of play in the clutch fork then your bushing in the fork is gone and your clutch behavior is going to be sucky.

These are quick checks that will give us some good data to start with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cap'n Krusty]

Sounds like you have a clutch tube or other clutch related problem. Reverse grinding is a good indicator that the clutch is not fully disengaging. R does not have a synchro band and tooth set up like the other gears and so needs the clutch to be fully engaged to relieve force on the moving components. The other gears grinding support this diagnosis, but alone would not only do so.

I would check the following:

1-Clutch pedal disengagement; it should disengage in the 1st 1/3 of travel

2-Adjustment nuts at the end of the clutch cable. They can move if not double nutted. Can lead to #1 changing

3-See if you can wiggle your clutch for. If there is a lot of play in the clutch fork then your bushing in the fork is gone and your clutch behavior is going to be sucky.

These are quick checks that will give us some good data to start with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Uhhhhh, Doc? I hope you check the symptoms on your human patients better than you did here. You missed "I engaged reverse OK and backed out of the garage. But I heard a grinding/growling noise while moving and felt the sensation of something restricting movement (like brake on, but it wasn't."

The Cap'n

[Porsche Rescue]

I first tightened the clutch adjustment nut as I had recently loosened it a bit. Then wiggled the fork. All seemed OK. Started car and shifted to reverse. Shifts fine, no grind. As soon as I begin to engage the clutch I hear the growl/grind. Backed out of garage. Shifted to first with ease, same noise when I engage the clutch. It truly feels like the transmission is fighting itself, sort of locked up. Car will move but not well and it sounds terrible.

I drained it and got nothing but very clean gear oil. Very little on the magnet and no sign of brass or other shavings in the oil. I should report that last August when I got the car I changed the gear oil (It was very low). I have only driven the car about 100 miles since so the oil is near virgin. During the 100 miles the clutch/tranny were fine. The car sat all winter as it needed engine trouble shooting and push rod seal replacement. Just finished all that and only drove it a few miles before today's experience.

Thanks, and keep the ideas coming.

[Jacob]

As soon as I begin to engage the clutch I hear the growl/grind. Backed out of garage. Shifted to first with ease, same noise when I engage the clutch.

You did not mention the fact that you get the noise when you engage the clutch before.

When you get the noise as you are trying to get it in gear, it usually indicates the clutch is not fully disengaging, or a synchronizer problem. When you get the noise as you are engaging the clutch it usually indicates the clutch itself has a problem.

This is pointing to the clutch itself, it might be coming apart. How many miles on the clutch. Any clutch work done recently?

[Porsche Rescue]

Not sure of clutch age. Major engine work about 5K miles (but many years) back. Don't know if clutch was replaced.
Do know that the tranny is leaking from front mainshaft seal and clutch is probably oily.
But, car shifts fine. Noise seems to be from the tranny but I guess it could be the clutch. Sounds like tranny is coming out regardless!

edit: to clarify, noise begins as soon as the tranny starts to turn and continues as I drive (slowly in the driveway only) with the clutch fully engaged.

[Dr Evil]

Sounds like you have a clutch tube or other clutch related problem. Reverse grinding is a good indicator that the clutch is not fully disengaging. R does not have a synchro band and tooth set up like the other gears and so needs the clutch to be fully engaged to relieve force on the moving components. The other gears grinding support this diagnosis, but alone would not only do so.

I would check the following:

1-Clutch pedal disengagement; it should disengage in the 1st 1/3 of travel

2-Adjustment nuts at the end of the clutch cable. They can move if not double nutted. Can lead to #1 changing

3-See if you can wiggle your clutch for. If there is a lot of play in the clutch fork then your bushing in the fork is gone and your clutch behavior is going to be sucky.

These are quick checks that will give us some good data to start with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Uhhhhh, Doc? I hope you check the symptoms on your human patients better than you did here. You missed "I engaged reverse OK and backed out of the garage. But I heard a grinding/growling noise while moving and felt the sensation of something restricting movement (like brake on, but it wasn't."

The Cap'n

Umm, hey Captain Crunch, "attempted to engage reverse and heardf/felt a horrible grind"
Tis what I was addressing.

[Dr Evil]

Not sure of clutch age. Major engine work about 5K miles (but many years) back. Don't know if clutch was replaced.
Do know that the tranny is leaking from front mainshaft seal and clutch is probably oily.
But, car shifts fine. Noise seems to be from the tranny but I guess it could be the clutch. Sounds like tranny is coming out regardless!

edit: to clarify, noise begins as soon as the tranny starts to turn and continues as I drive (slowly in the driveway only) with the clutch fully engaged.

OK, the way it sounded before was that your reverse gears were grinding which would = what I said before. If it is making sounds like a mill when you release the clutch it is most likely the intermediate plate bearing. Time to pull it.

A nap does wonders for the concentration (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Your email had me thinking something different that what your post here mentioned.

[Porsche Rescue]

Thanks Dr. I have a second confirming opinion from another 914'r. He also guesses intermediate plate bearing.

Now to complicate things..... I have a good side shifter but don't want to switch if I can avoid it (originality nut!). Can the guts from it be swapped into my tail shifter?

[J P Stein]

I have a good (2 actually but one is NFS) intermediate plate with good bearings.
Another opinion on the interchangablity would be good.

[Cap'n Krusty]

As soon as I begin to engage the clutch I hear the growl/grind. Backed out of garage. Shifted to first with ease, same noise when I engage the clutch.

You did not mention the fact that you get the noise when you engage the clutch before.

When you get the noise as you are trying to get it in gear, it usually indicates the clutch is not fully disengaging, or a synchronizer problem. When you get the noise as you are engaging the clutch it usually indicates the clutch itself has a problem.

This is pointing to the clutch itself, it might be coming apart. How many miles on the clutch. Any clutch work done recently?

"You did not mention the fact that you get the noise when you engage the clutch before. " Yes, he did. The Cap'n

[Cap'n Krusty]

Sounds like you have a clutch tube or other clutch related problem. Reverse grinding is a good indicator that the clutch is not fully disengaging. R does not have a synchro band and tooth set up like the other gears and so needs the clutch to be fully engaged to relieve force on the moving components. The other gears grinding support this diagnosis, but alone would not only do so.

I would check the following:

1-Clutch pedal disengagement; it should disengage in the 1st 1/3 of travel

2-Adjustment nuts at the end of the clutch cable. They can move if not double nutted. Can lead to #1 changing

3-See if you can wiggle your clutch for. If there is a lot of play in the clutch fork then your bushing in the fork is gone and your clutch behavior is going to be sucky.

These are quick checks that will give us some good data to start with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Uhhhhh, Doc? I hope you check the symptoms on your human patients better than you did here. You missed "I engaged reverse OK and backed out of the garage. But I heard a grinding/growling noise while moving and felt the sensation of something restricting movement (like brake on, but it wasn't."

The Cap'n

Umm, hey Captain Crunch, "attempted to engage reverse and heardf/felt a horrible grind"
Tis what I was addressing.

That's like treating a guy for a dizzy feeling and failing to notice his arm's been severed and he has no blood left............... Sorry, Doc, I'm callin' it like I see it. The Cap'n

[J P Stein]

Sorry, Doc, I'm callin' it like I see it. The Cap'n

That's part of your charm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Porsche Rescue]

Ok, but can someone tell me if the "guts" (intermediate plate/bearings/gear stack will swap from a sideshifter to a tailshifter
(Assuming the swapper knows what he is doing)?

[Dr Evil]

Sorry, Doc, I'm callin' it like I see it. The Cap'n

That's part of your charm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Read my fucking post, I referred to a PERSONAL message he sent to me, not what he posted here.

"Your email had me thinking something different that what your post here mentioned."

Why do you always have to be such a dick? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I dont find it charming at all, never have.

Regarding that actual point of this post, you can swap the guts, but swapping the intermediate plate is not necessary. Also, swapping the plate requires that you compensate for any thickness variations. The best thing to do is this:
- New bearing (or good used depending on your budget)

To do things in the best manner would require you to change the bearing. You need to preserve the pinion shaft with the diff in the box. To change the bearing you need to disassemble the gear stack. I can help you if needed.

I wouldnt gut a good side shifter if all you need is a bearing (or other parts that will likely be needed) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cap'n Krusty]

Ok, but can someone tell me if the "guts" (intermediate plate/bearings/gear stack will swap from a sideshifter to a tailshifter
(Assuming the swapper knows what he is doing)?

No. Well, yes, but you have to change the ring gear, too, and set the preload and backlash. Not something you should try at home without some degree of training and about $5K worth of tools. You can, as I said above, change the plate. BTW, ANY TIME you remove the cluster, you need to carefully measure the stack of paper gaskets behind it and replace it with EXACTLY the same sizes.

The Cap'n

[Porsche Rescue]

Thank you Cap'n. Sounds like I need to repair what I have and leave my other trans alone.
Thanks also to Dr. E. Hope I did not cause the hard feelings. I appreciate the wisdom of you both.

[Cap'n Krusty]

Sorry, Doc, I'm callin' it like I see it. The Cap'n

That's part of your charm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Read my fucking post, I referred to a PERSONAL message he sent to me, not what he posted here.

"Your email had me thinking something different that what your post here mentioned."

Why do you always have to be such a dick? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I dont find it charming at all, never have.

Regarding that actual point of this post, you can swap the guts, but swapping the intermediate plate is not necessary. Also, swapping the plate requires that you compensate for any thickness variations. The best thing to do is this:
- New bearing (or good used depending on your budget)

To do things in the best manner would require you to change the bearing. You need to preserve the pinion shaft with the diff in the box. To change the bearing you need to disassemble the gear stack. I can help you if needed.

I wouldnt gut a good side shifter if all you need is a bearing (or other parts that will likely be needed) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

"Such a dick"? Excuse me? Maybe it's because about 9400 members, some of whom need or may need, help on this very matter, may be reading this thread. Most (all) of us never saw that PM to which you were replying, and the answer you gave US is sorely lacking in accuracy as far as WE know, given the information WE have. NOTHING in YOUR initial post mentions anything WE didn't see, nor alludes to the existence of any PM. People (including me) look up to you as an authority on transmissions, and for good reason. Getting sloppy isn't in the best interests of anyone here, including yourself. If you were offended by my original reply to your post (and it appears you were), look to WHY it offended you. Charming or not, I'm Krusty to anybody, except most newbies, and that's just my way of expressing my affection for you all .............

The Cap'n

[EdwardBlume]

C'mon you guys (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif)