more about Fuchs, Fuchs Options

[McMark]

So McMark - on those 2L alloys - did they color the background to that matte or satin silver finish, then seal them????

...as opposed to the semi-polished "petals" or "windmill blades" & rims or lips below:

The 'color' difference in this case is a factor of pre-anodizing surface finish. Anodizing is not thick and so will 'show through' any finish on the base metal. Anodizing does reduce any polish slightly, and that's why aluminum trim will never be as reflective as chrome trim. The difficulty in refinishing wheels like this is how to reproduce a non-directional satin finish. Bead blasting is too coarse, sanding leave directional scratches, but perhaps something like soda blasting would work (or some other media, maybe plastic?). Al Reed certainly has this down. He did a set of RS-look five lugs for me that were perfect (RS-look is just like ours, satin background with polished spokes/paddles).

[Tom_T]

So McMark - on those 2L alloys - did they color the background to that matte or satin silver finish, then seal them????

...as opposed to the semi-polished "petals" or "windmill blades" & rims or lips below:

The 'color' difference in this case is a factor of pre-anodizing surface finish. Anodizing is not thick and so will 'show through' any finish on the base metal. Anodizing does reduce any polish slightly, and that's why aluminum trim will never be as reflective as chrome trim. The difficulty in refinishing wheels like this is how to reproduce a non-directional satin finish. Bead blasting is too coarse, sanding leave directional scratches, but perhaps something like soda blasting would work (or some other media, maybe plastic?). Al Reed certainly has this down. He did a set of RS-look five lugs for me that were perfect (RS-look is just like ours, satin background with polished spokes/paddles).

Yeah - Al has it down, he had loads of finished 5-spoke/lug Fuchs with various finishes & was explaining to me that he has some sort of a fine bead blast or something to get the 2L 4-lug background finish - but anodizes first, because he found if done after it turns dark.

btw - side question - when you do those 2056 Raby kits on the 2L, does that retain the D-jet & at what HP & Torque??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[ME733]

Tom...this is murray.,,I found your questions intresting.,and it was informative to me personally to "discover" facts about my fuchs that I just never thought about. maybe this information will be of use to someone...this helps me toward conferming that I really do have a real 1973 2.0 S. this car has every option except a heated rear window. I must say that I prefer the look of the mahle wheels which were also available. I suppose you could have a choise at the dealer, but I am pretty sure the 2.0 S came with the fuchs as a standard equipment , maxed out, upgraded "super car!!!!" 914. for 1973. I prefer the original FUCHS unpainted look also, could you assist in helping me find the article/ info you mentioned to remove the paint safely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Tom ...This is murray well the 914 S I have came with three set of rims . one set was the "fuchs" we were discussing, and the other two are "mahle"s. the UPDATE is simply that I have removed the background Black paint on the Fuchs .(why in hell the P.O. had these painted is beyond me). The paint was crappy, which was good ...as it came off resonably easy, with paint stripper and brake kleen. Then I did a little polishing , with a little corse rubbing compound to do some deep cleaning, and then fine polished with fine rubbing compound . The "spokes" were compounded and polished to a new condition, all done by HAND....the "spokes " came highly polished as compaired to the recessed spokes. there was no anidization, or optical illusion factor. The wheels are back to O.E.M. apperance...and look GREAT!. I steamed cleaned (again) both sets of "MAHLE,s". and found an exact color match of (for ) spraying painting these wheels...one set is finished. but I cannot decide which, or what brand of clear coat to use. Seems like there are some choises, but I dont want them hazing over, or turning yellow If the clear coat is crap. I am very fortunate to have gotten so many O.E.M. spares with the car. I appreciate all of you guys input . about "wheels". thanks. If there were a symbol for work your ass off I would have used it here.(polishing). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Tom_T]

Tom...this is murray.,,I found your questions intresting.,and it was informative to me personally to "discover" facts about my fuchs that I just never thought about. maybe this information will be of use to someone...this helps me toward conferming that I really do have a real 1973 2.0 S. this car has every option except a heated rear window. I must say that I prefer the look of the mahle wheels which were also available. I suppose you could have a choise at the dealer, but I am pretty sure the 2.0 S came with the fuchs as a standard equipment , maxed out, upgraded "super car!!!!" 914. for 1973. I prefer the original FUCHS unpainted look also, could you assist in helping me find the article/ info you mentioned to remove the paint safely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Tom ...This is murray well the 914 S I have came with three set of rims . one set was the "fuchs" we were discussing, and the other two are "mahle"s. the UPDATE is simply that I have removed the background Black paint on the Fuchs .(why in hell the P.O. had these painted is beyond me). The paint was crappy, which was good ...as it came off resonably easy, with paint stripper and brake kleen. Then I did a little polishing , with a little corse rubbing compound to do some deep cleaning, and then fine polished with fine rubbing compound . The "spokes" were compounded and polished to a new condition, all done by HAND....the "spokes " came highly polished as compaired to the recessed spokes. there was no anidization, or optical illusion factor. The wheels are back to O.E.M. apperance...and look GREAT!. I steamed cleaned (again) both sets of "MAHLE,s". and found an exact color match of (for ) spraying painting these wheels...one set is finished. but I cannot decide which, or what brand of clear coat to use. Seems like there are some choises, but I dont want them hazing over, or turning yellow If the clear coat is crap. I am very fortunate to have gotten so many O.E.M. spares with the car. I appreciate all of you guys input . about "wheels". thanks. If there were a symbol for work your ass off I would have used it here.(polishing). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Hey Murray.....Glad to hear you got those Fuchs 2L alloys back to the OE look.

I'd ask some of the originality folks about the proper finish for the Mahle 4 lugs, as I thought they were also satin & semi-polished like the Fuchs 2Ls - I think the rim edge & top of ribs were semi-polished, with a satin background. Maybe McMark, Pat Garvey or someone knows???? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I'm heading for the same hard work myself, as I picked up a set of 5 Fuchs 2L alloys for my 914S (...sorry Pat, btw apparently Porsche AG allowed the UK to keep the 914SC marketing name, but no badges as such). A couple of POs &/or Dealer first primed them with the green zinc then painted them Signal Orange or Phoenix Red, then another PO painted silver over that. It appears that the paint may have actually preserved the OE finish - I hope, but that has to wait for other projects to get mine fixed/painted & running! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[ME733]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Tom...I did ask an expert about the "MAHLE" wheels. George Hussey at A.A.. he confermed, some months ago it seems, that they ARE PAINTED.(.a particular silver color which is hard to find.) when I pressure washed them...the paint came off..down to the PRIMER. one set of the MAHLEs is back to original(without the clearcoat so far). I think I will try to see how they look with just the topmost of the ribs HIGHLY polished. I don't want to become a wheel polishing expert as it,s dam hard work just by hand, but I didn't want to use anything mechanical(up to this point anyway) just because it would have been easy to overpolish the "FUCHS "and go beyond the original apperance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Tom_T]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Tom...I did ask an expert about the "MAHLE" wheels. George Hussey at A.A.. he confermed, some months ago it seems, that they ARE PAINTED.(.a particular silver color which is hard to find.) when I pressure washed them...the paint came off..down to the PRIMER. one set of the MAHLEs is back to original(without the clearcoat so far). I think I will try to see how they look with just the topmost of the ribs HIGHLY polished. I don't want to become a wheel polishing expert as it,s dam hard work just by hand, but I didn't want to use anything mechanical(up to this point anyway) just because it would have been easy to overpolish the "FUCHS "and go beyond the original apperance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) ...yeah, best to go easy on them, esp. given their price & limited availability! I need to find a very gentle solvent or remover for that green zinc-oxide primer & paint on mine, so I can save the underlying OE finish & hope it's in good shape. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[Bleyseng]

So McMark - on those 2L alloys - did they color the background to that matte or satin silver finish, then seal them????

...as opposed to the semi-polished "petals" or "windmill blades" & rims or lips below:

The 'color' difference in this case is a factor of pre-anodizing surface finish. Anodizing is not thick and so will 'show through' any finish on the base metal. Anodizing does reduce any polish slightly, and that's why aluminum trim will never be as reflective as chrome trim. The difficulty in refinishing wheels like this is how to reproduce a non-directional satin finish. Bead blasting is too coarse, sanding leave directional scratches, but perhaps something like soda blasting would work (or some other media, maybe plastic?). Al Reed certainly has this down. He did a set of RS-look five lugs for me that were perfect (RS-look is just like ours, satin background with polished spokes/paddles).

Yeah - Al has it down, he had loads of finished 5-spoke/lug Fuchs with various finishes & was explaining to me that he has some sort of a fine bead blast or something to get the 2L 4-lug background finish - but anodizes first, because he found if done after it turns dark.

btw - side question - when you do those 2056 Raby kits on the 2L, does that retain the D-jet & at what HP & Torque??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

A 2056 Raby kit is about 115hp with the Djet...makes the 914 a different car.

[Tom_T]

So McMark - on those 2L alloys - did they color the background to that matte or satin silver finish, then seal them????

...as opposed to the semi-polished "petals" or "windmill blades" & rims or lips below:

The 'color' difference in this case is a factor of pre-anodizing surface finish. Anodizing is not thick and so will 'show through' any finish on the base metal. Anodizing does reduce any polish slightly, and that's why aluminum trim will never be as reflective as chrome trim. The difficulty in refinishing wheels like this is how to reproduce a non-directional satin finish. Bead blasting is too coarse, sanding leave directional scratches, but perhaps something like soda blasting would work (or some other media, maybe plastic?). Al Reed certainly has this down. He did a set of RS-look five lugs for me that were perfect (RS-look is just like ours, satin background with polished spokes/paddles).

Yeah - Al has it down, he had loads of finished 5-spoke/lug Fuchs with various finishes & was explaining to me that he has some sort of a fine bead blast or something to get the 2L 4-lug background finish - but anodizes first, because he found if done after it turns dark.

btw - side question - when you do those 2056 Raby kits on the 2L, does that retain the D-jet & at what HP & Torque??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

A 2056 Raby kit is about 115hp with the Djet...makes the 914 a different car.

How much is the torque spiked? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
...since that's what gives you the pulling power to get'r up & going & passing at speed!

[Pat Garvey]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Tom...I did ask an expert about the "MAHLE" wheels. George Hussey at A.A.. he confermed, some months ago it seems, that they ARE PAINTED.(.a particular silver color which is hard to find.) when I pressure washed them...the paint came off..down to the PRIMER. one set of the MAHLEs is back to original(without the clearcoat so far). I think I will try to see how they look with just the topmost of the ribs HIGHLY polished. I don't want to become a wheel polishing expert as it,s dam hard work just by hand, but I didn't want to use anything mechanical(up to this point anyway) just because it would have been easy to overpolish the "FUCHS "and go beyond the original apperance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

George, as usual, is correct. Mahles WERE painted, though the ribs were anodized.

I remember (years ago) someone saying that a Glasurit paint for BMW wheels would be about the same, but don't hold me to that & I didn't write doen the code.

BTW guys, can we keep this thread on topic, please? Raby engines belong on a different forum. Let's keep it as pure as possible.
Pat

[Bleyseng]

I have used Wurth's silver as its a close match to the Mahle rims silver.

[ME733]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) George H at A.A. has the exact wurth color.....Tom, in your case ,with many coats of paint and primer to remove maybe the solution is to GLASS BEAD them. It,s the least distructive, easest, and best thing to do..(.the walnut shells etc etc can be TOO abrasive.) : by the way my primer color was a light BLUE. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[davep]

In my experience there were 3 front brake rotors used in production, with the mid version being a half step between the others. The first rotor (still available) is for the early cars with the early (single bleeder) calipers and struts. The last rotor (still available) is for the late cars with the late (dual bleeder) calipers and struts and is hub-centric. The mid rotor (not available soon after the late rotor came out) is for the late cars with the late (dual bleeder) calipers and struts and was not hub-centric; these appeared on late 1972 MY production with the introduction of the new struts and calipers, and were discontinued during the 1973 MY. It would be very rare to find one today. If I can find the part #'s then I'll edit this post.

Anodizing is essentially the creation of a hard oxide layer on aluminum, and this oxide is also known as ceramic. Cast aluminum parts are generally too porous for anodizing, hence the Pedrini and Mahle rims were painted. There are special primers used on the bare metal, and these are usually colored. The magnesium gasburner Mahle 5 bolt rims had a turquoise primer under the silver paint.

The alloy-wheel bolts (the long ones) are steel, with a copper plate layer, and a top cadmium plate layer. Often, when the cad layer is worn away, you will see a green/blue layer underneath that is the corroded copper layer.

I believe that both Pedrini and Fuchs came in non-hubcentric versions. Pedrini rims came out early before the change to the calipers and struts, so were for the first rotor version. Fuchs came later, and were initially used with the mid version rotor. After the hubcentric rotors came out all rims were available to match.

[ME733]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) Hello davep....Intresting obversavions in your post. I think you did not mention the type of aluminum of the FUCHS. I am positive they are forged aluminum....I finally broke down and got out the "porting tools" ,and flap sanders, so I could get the backside of the wheels down to bare aluminum. getting off thirty six years or roadgrime, refosselized oil, multiple wheelweights, and glue, etc.etc. was just not possable by hand.as well as multiple soakings with "mag wheel cleaner''and paint stripper . There were some wheel mouting scars and abrasions that needed smoothing. The wheels are forged. they just didn't sand easy like a cast aluminum material. it took at least as much effort to do the backside/inside of the wheels as the fronts. now they too look great!., I balanced the wheels myself and the maximun weight was ..1.1/4 .OZ..! .polished up the s.s.wheel center caps which are perfect....and now i need to get 20 chrome headed new wheel studs. AS ...you said...the originals lost their finish. I wonder if they would look decent with black paint, or black plastic caps. or maybe paint them with the "MAHLE '' paint....I will find out soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Tom_T]

Yes Murray, the Fuchs 2L were listed as "Forged Alloy Wheels" & therefore also much stronger in torsion than the Perdrini's or Mahles, as well as being the lightest at 10.1 lbs.

I don't want to blast the Fuchs I got, because that will strip the anodized layer, which is very thin. I'll just have to try some various paint strippers/removers/solvents &/or acetone - which the seller used to carefully take off the silver paint on 3 & a test strip of the orange/primer on one of those.

From that & a few placers where the paint flaked off, the underlying finish looks very good to excellent, so I'm hoping patience & care on my part, will save me $140 per wheel to have Al Reed out here strip & refinish/re-anodize them! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tom_T]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) George H at A.A. has the exact wurth color.....Tom, in your case ,with many coats of paint and primer to remove maybe the solution is to GLASS BEAD them. It,s the least distructive, easest, and best thing to do..(.the walnut shells etc etc can be TOO abrasive.) : by the way my primer color was a light BLUE. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

btw Murry, double check the price of the Wurth Silver at Performance Products (with their weekly sale at 10-15%), Pelican, etc., to make sure you can get the best price. In your case, you're close enough to AA to go pick it up & save shipping, so it may not make a difference, but....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[ME733]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) TOM, ..Is this of any intrest?...my O.E.M. set of "fuchs" are not HUB CENTRIC as discussed ...but LUG centric. The front HUBS on my car are "HUB CENTRIC"...the rear hubs are "LUG centric."..Question???...were or are there rear hub centric hubs?...when were the rear hub centric hubs available?....and BOTH SETS of the Mahle wheels...all 8, eight... are HUB centric in design....were the "MAHLE" wheels available ...AT or AFTER...the fuchs were available?. If they were only available somewhat later,(1974?) it would explain why they are hub centric. ANY idea on the history ?....thanks ..murray.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Tom_T]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) TOM, ..Is this of any intrest?...my O.E.M. set of "fuchs" are not HUB CENTRIC as discussed ...but LUG centric. The front HUBS on my car are "HUB CENTRIC"...the rear hubs are "LUG centric."..Question???...were or are there rear hub centric hubs?...when were the rear hub centric hubs available?....and BOTH SETS of the Mahle wheels...all 8, eight... are HUB centric in design....were the "MAHLE" wheels available ...AT or AFTER...the fuchs were available?. If they were only available somewhat later,(1974?) it would explain why they are hub centric. ANY idea on the history ?....thanks ..murray.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Murry, as far as I've researched - & others who may know better can chime in here too -

1. The hubs were only hub-centric in the front & integral with the disk brake rotors, but the rear rotors may have had the end-shaft/driveshaft hub extend through the rear disk rotor at some point for the same effect (anyone else?).

2. Hub centric & matching wheel issue came in for the `73 MY, but there was some carry over of the early 72 MY front hubs on the early-73 MY builds to use up the stock.

3. They had non-hub-centric ("plain flat back") wheels of all types ending with part # -00, whereas the hub-centric ("back machined for hub-centric lip") ended in -01; but both were used in the early 73 MY, which caused some mismatch problems due to inattentive assembly at the factory, wherein the 00 wheels would not seat on the new hub-centric hubs & posed a serious hazard of loosing a wheel/tire.

So in 12/73 they issued the BO (2L with Fuchs 2L Alloys) & BH (all others) Recalls as noted above in this thread a few pages back, after the problem was discovered, to have all the 914s checked for proper wheel matching fitment.

4. From what Pat Garvey has said here, the "new" Fuchs 4 lug 2L Forged Alloy Wheels were available in the late 72 MY (early 72) before the 73 MY started. According to most of the books on 914s, the factory & sales literature, etc., they all or almost all indicated that both the Fuchs 2L & 4 lug Mahle "Baby Gas Burner" Alloys became available for the 73 MY, but it makes sense that they might have made some available in advance of that auto MY release in Aug/Sept.

5. Those early releases could have been intentionally made as #-00 variety for pre-73 MY models' application on new & used/aftermarket wheels for the older MY's 914s, as well as the #-01 for the "new" hub-centric 73 MY 914s. The factory probably intended that the latter went on all 73 MY 914s exclusively, but they were either not in stock or they workers got careless on the mix-n-match problem - who knows why/how?

6. I've recently seen the Fuchs & Mahles & Pedrinis as both -00 & -01 varieties now for sale on-line here, TheSamba, etc. - so they produced the 4 lug alloy wheels of all varieties in both versions.

7. As far as I know, the "standard" or "base level" OE Steel wheels for the 73 MY 1.7Ls were changed to the "mag-look" 4-point star pattern design, which was only produced in the hub-centric stamping, since that was one type of tooling, whereas the alloys had to have the inset ring machined into it after forging or casting as an extra process, so it could be easily left "flat back" & stamped as an -00.

Hope this helps! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ME733]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) ...YES TOM this information does help........HOWEVER.......does this mean the "FUCHS" with (mfg.serial # ending in ...00...) are going to have a FITMENT PROBLEM?..on hub centric front hubs?.....I mean is there a clearance problem,(somewhere) as indicated In your information and as per the factory concerns?...I mounted the wheels / tires, but can see nor "feel" any problem?...WHERE or what is the SPECIFIC problem?...thanks ..murray. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Tom_T]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) ...YES TOM this information does help........HOWEVER.......does this mean the "FUCHS" with (mfg.serial # ending in ...00...) are going to have a FITMENT PROBLEM?..on hub centric front hubs?.....I mean is there a clearance problem,(somewhere) as indicated In your information and as per the factory concerns?...I mounted the wheels / tires, but can see nor "feel" any problem?...WHERE or what is the SPECIFIC problem?...thanks ..murray. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Yes Murry, they absolutely will NOT fit properly against the face of the hub/disk-rotor IF your front hubs are hub-centric (also called "self-centering" hubs)! Do NOT run a -00 wheel of any flavor on hub-centric front hubs/disk-rotors.

This is because the small lip of the ring around the center hub/dust-cap which sticks out a few mm's from the hub/disk-rotor's surface will hold the face away from fully seating on the hub/disk-rotor, which can then "wobble" that amount & damage the lug bolts, rotor, etc. - costing a bunch of $'s to fix, even if there is never an accident as a result.

The inset on the back of the wheel shown in this pic below, shos where the lip fits into, in order for the rest of the wheel back-face to seat properly & flat on the hub-centric front hubs/rotors.

So first check to see if you have a hub-centric front rotor, then act accordingly - i.e.: use only the -01 type wheels if hub-centric, or either -00 or -01 if not. If the PO had ever changed the front rotors due to wear - or if you do yourself, chances are that even the non-hub-centric hubs/rotors up front are/will be hub-centric replacements, since that's the proper spec for your 73 2L (914S (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

Go to the web link below, then drop down to the BO & BH Recalls below, go to the right columns & print-out the pages of the actual recall letters sent by VoA to the Porsche+Audi Dealers on the 2 wheel fitment recalls. Do the same for the HO Recall on the battery & fuel lines problem too.
http://members.rennlist.com/914_collectibles/Recalls.htm

Then call PCNA - which is based right near you in Atlanta (you lucky devil! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ), and go to option #3 & ask them to check your 914's VIN to find out if either the BO &/or HO were ever performed on your car. I have a PCNA Porsche regional service manager coming out to inspect mine later this month.

If not, then Porsche is still obligated to do the work listed on the VoA letters at a local Porsche Dealership AT NO COST, since these were NHSTA required safety recalls. Have them do the HO Recall to replace the rubber fuel lines,battery top, hold downs, add a battery pad, etc. (most/all parts for this one are still available).

Although I don't know what they'll do for the Fuchs 2L wheels, since they're NLA, but maybe they'll work out a swap of your -00 set for a proper used -01 set. BTW - as the recalls say - a full set was 5 - including the spare, NOT 4 as many have, so insist on that & have them take your 4 -00 Fuchs 2Ls + Steelie Spare! I know it may be a disappointment after spending all that time to get your Fuchs 2Ls into top shape, but now you can insist on equal condition replacements.

Your 2 sets of Mahles may have been the PO's attempt to remedy the wheels fitment problem - or the original selling Porsche Dealer's. Perhaps the PO didn't know that he/she could have the recall performed, or that it even existed.

Sorry, but - if the BO Recall was done on your car, then I'd suggest that you only run on the -01 Mahles until you can buy or swap your -00 Fuchs 2L Alloys for a proper used set of the -01 variety. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Proper Part #...-01 Fuchs Wheel at back face:



Hope this helps!
BTW - I sent you a PM yesterday or Thursday (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JeffBowlsby]

The correct link for the recall info is now: http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Recalls.htm

PS I am informed that it was too many years ago and Porsche is not legally obligated to honor those old recalls any more. Something about a statute of limitations...and besides the parts are NLA...