 Needed for Testing: Bone stock D and L Jet equipped 914s, For testing of a new oversized throttle body replacement |
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| Jake Raby |
 Jul 29 2009, 11:58 PM
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#1
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Engine Surgeon  Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States  |
The title says it all..
We don't have any bone stock cars here and I have been working on a new throttle body that bolts directly to a non modified L jet or D jet plenum.. I'd only need the car for an afternoon, so hopefully someone in Atlanta or the surrounding areas can hep us gather some data on my chassis dyno.. The engine must be in a good state of tune, not worn out and not filled with "bugs" and issues.. We need a solid before and after comparative to polish off this developoment and get it on the market with known results. We have the bigger engines covered and don't need any test cars for those. A 100.00 Gift Certificate from my store will be awarded to the two people that help us out... Wait till you see this... Up to a 48mm taper bored throttle body that bolts right on in about 20 minutes! |
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| hot_shoe914 |
Jul 30 2009, 12:02 AM
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#2
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on ramp passer Group: Members Posts: 3,802 Joined: 20-November 07 From: Earle, Ar. Member No.: 8,354 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 30 2009, 12:58 AM)  The title says it all.. We don't have any bone stock cars here and I have been working on a new throttle body that bolts directly to a non modified L jet or D jet plenum.. I'd only need the car for an afternoon, so hopefully someone in Atlanta or the surrounding areas can hep us gather some data on my chassis dyno.. The engine must be in a good state of tune, not worn out and not filled with "bugs" and issues.. We need a solid before and after comparative to polish off this developoment and get it on the market with known results. We have the bigger engines covered and don't need any test cars for those. A 100.00 Gift Certificate from my store will be awarded to the two people that help us out... Wait till you see this... Up to a 48mm taper bored throttle body that bolts right on in about 20 minutes! How soon do you need this Jake? |
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| Jake Raby |
Jul 30 2009, 12:33 AM
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#3
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
Two weeks from now...
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| banger |
Jul 30 2009, 03:29 AM
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 12-November 06 From: Santa Clarita Member No.: 7,205 Region Association: Southern California |
Hasnt there been a bolt on oversized throttle body available for a long time? The 2.1L vanagon throttle body is 52mm and bolts right on, and even has the VW logo to match the rest of the engine. The downside is that the entrance to the plenum is smaller, so you would still need to enlarge this on some plenums to take advantage of the larger throttle body.
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| ConeDodger |
Jul 30 2009, 09:32 AM
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#5
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Apex killer! Group: Members Posts: 23,580 Joined: 31-December 04 From: Tahoe Area Member No.: 3,380 Region Association: Northern California 
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QUOTE(banger @ Jul 30 2009, 01:29 AM) Hasnt there been a bolt on oversized throttle body available for a long time? The 2.1L vanagon throttle body is 52mm and bolts right on, and even has the VW logo to match the rest of the engine. The downside is that the entrance to the plenum is smaller, so you would still need to enlarge this on some plenums to take advantage of the larger throttle body. Your question goes to the heart of the aftermarket situation. Build a part and market it as increasing HP by 20% and some people will flock to buy it. Later, some magazine tests it and discovers it only changes the sound or actually sometimes decreases HP. Yes, there has been an oversized throttle body available for quite some time but there is no data to say it is of any benefit or proof that it does no harm. Jake is doing what Jake does. Like him or not, he finds out what works and acts accordingly. |
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| Mark Henry |
Jul 30 2009, 09:42 AM
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that's what I do! Group: Members Posts: 20,065 Joined: 27-December 02 From: Port Hope, Ontario Member No.: 26 Region Association: Canada |
Be interesting to see. Mike has one of the bored out jobs, we tried it and it made (seat of pants) less power. We messed with it for a while (timing, etc) don't think it was ever any better than stock. He just gets stock ones rebushed now.
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| Jake Raby |
Jul 30 2009, 10:08 AM
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#7
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
We made these for larger displacement engines that are still using the stock plenum...
A 52mm unit may be available and bolt right on, but what if thats too big??? Bigger isn't better, especially with T/B sizing due to lean out at low speeds and "tip in" due to "big throttle body syndrome". My intent is to see if this unit is compatible with the stock FI and offers any gains in torque, HP or RPM range so I can thoroughly understand what the unit does and effectively answer the questions of buyers that inquire about it... Thats what I do. The unit could hurt the performance of a stock engine and thats what I need to see comparatively and back to back with my own two eyes in my environment... If the unit helps performance we need to understand why and gather data to support this exploration. The units we are using were made application specific and can be sized in 40,42,45,and 48mm with either straight or 5* taper bores. The stock air filter or a high volume foam filter is compliant with these units. The stock throttle cable also works. Like I said, these were made for our larger displacement engines and the unit I will be testing was particularly sized for my 2056cc-115 HP engine that is designed to utilize stock D or L jet FI. I feel the RPM of this engine can be improved upon by a slight boost in throttle body volume. I just want to see how the stock engine responds to this as well and lay the graphs over each other for a direct comparison and understanding. I am doing this testing objectively and no matter what I may think we must at least try the component and allow it to illustrate the big picture... Those who don't explore never get anywhere. This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Jul 30 2009, 10:09 AM |
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| jgara962 |
Jul 30 2009, 11:28 AM
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#8
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Yo, this is how I roll Group: Members Posts: 823 Joined: 5-April 05 From: Napa, CA Member No.: 3,879 Region Association: Northern California |
It will be interesting to see the results of this test. One thing that these cars seem to lack are bolt on parts that truly increase performance. It's good to see that Jake does the testing and shows exactly what you can expect and not just touting it as a bolt on that increases power by 10% like so many others do.
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| SLITS |
Jul 30 2009, 11:42 AM
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#9
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"This Utah shit is HARSH!" Group: Benefactors Posts: 13,602 Joined: 22-February 04 From: SoCal Mountains ... Member No.: 1,696 Region Association: None  |
I have an oversized one (not a rebore) on a bone stock 2.0L. I never pulled the part number to determine what it was. Engine ran great with plenty of power till I got a little fiesty at Streets of Willow and the engine started to pull a valve thru the head (I pulled it before any disaster occured). I can pull the part number if anyone is really interested.
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| blitZ |
Jul 30 2009, 12:28 PM
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Beer please... Group: Members Posts: 2,223 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Lawrenceville, GA Member No.: 4,719 Region Association: South East States |
I have a 2056 with dJet you can test on if needed.
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| Jake Raby |
Jul 30 2009, 12:35 PM
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#11
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(blitZ @ Jul 30 2009, 11:28 AM) I have a 2056 with dJet you can test on if needed. What are the specs of this 2056?? I need bone stock virgin cars if possible.. |
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| blitZ |
Jul 30 2009, 12:56 PM
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#12
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Beer please... Group: Members Posts: 2,223 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Lawrenceville, GA Member No.: 4,719 Region Association: South East States |
9550 cam
9.0 compression cold air intake, but I could put the stock one back on. QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 30 2009, 02:35 PM) QUOTE(blitZ @ Jul 30 2009, 11:28 AM) I have a 2056 with dJet you can test on if needed. What are the specs of this 2056?? I need bone stock virgin cars if possible.. |
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| Jake Raby |
Jul 30 2009, 02:37 PM
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#13
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
Les, I'll take you up on the comparison.. If we could get a bone stock car here the same day for a back to back we would really learn a lot!
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| D1A3 |
Jul 30 2009, 02:53 PM
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#14
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Gruppe Neun Vierzehn Südosten Group: Members Posts: 362 Joined: 3-June 04 From: Atlanta, GA Member No.: 2,152 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 30 2009, 12:37 PM) Les, I'll take you up on the comparison.. If we could get a bone stock car here the same day for a back to back we would really learn a lot! Jake, We met back when the group came through ~2 years ago. I know Les and Blake and have a "bone stock" 2.0L. In fact, Blake and (mostly) Al helped with getting it rebuilt to stock condition. It has about 3000 miles on it since the rebuild. I'm in Roswell and would be happy to bring it up and let you spend some time with it. Send me a PM if you want to do it and we can hook up. Thanks, Jason |
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| r_towle |
Jul 30 2009, 05:08 PM
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#15
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,574 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States
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You may want to contact Rich Bontempi. I understood that he has been doing this, or may have done it (bored out throttle bodies) for a while and he may have some pre-existing results from his past experience.
I cant say exactly what he has done, but I recall hearing that he was a good source for these.... Rich |
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| john grier |
Jul 30 2009, 06:00 PM
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 303 Joined: 27-June 04 From: Hermitage, Tn Member No.: 2,265 Region Association: South East States |
Hey there Jake,
My brother has a bone stock Bumble Bee with about 123000 fairly documented miles. The muffler is not stock. We could drive down and back the same day if need be. Would this help? John |
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| Jake Raby |
Jul 30 2009, 07:50 PM
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#17
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
The previous experiences of others are hearsay, until I see it and gather the data it never really hits home.. Plus there is nothing like a back to back comparative.
We have installed larger throttle bodies on the stock plenums before, including a throttle body from a Ford Taurus SHO that was 65mm.. So this isn't my first rodeo with this, but it is the first time for the current technology on a stock plenum... Thats why I must experience the differences and gather data... So I can answer your questions and challenges with absolute responses. Nothing like slapping some smart ass in the face with real data... Thats more fun than actually gathering it! The throttle body design that I am using has never been applied to this arrangement before as it basically has the characteristics of a velocity stack all the way to the top of the throttle plate. FWIW I have used these are individual runner throttle bodies, in pairs on large MassIVe engines.... and they don't come from a Motorcycle.. I'll post pics when I get a chance. Jason, Blake recommended that I talk ton you- I know that engine is built right, so I'd definitely like to evaluate the arrangement on it... John, same goes for you.. We just need to get all 3 of the cars together and do all the comparatives the same day.. Maybe one Saturday in the next month or so??? This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Jul 30 2009, 07:53 PM |
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| ghuff |
Jul 30 2009, 08:00 PM
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#18
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This is certainly not what I expected down here. Group: Members Posts: 849 Joined: 21-May 09 From: Bodymore Murderland Member No.: 10,389 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 30 2009, 05:50 PM) The previous experiences of others are hearsay, until I see it and gather the data it never really hits home.. Plus there is nothing like a back to back comparative. We have installed larger throttle bodies on the stock plenums before, including a throttle body from a Ford Taurus SHO that was 65mm.. So this isn't my first rodeo with this, but it is the first time for the current technology on a stock plenum... Thats why I must experience the differences and gather data... So I can answer your questions and challenges with absolute responses. Nothing like slapping some smart ass in the face with real data... Thats more fun than actually gathering it! The throttle body design that I am using has never been applied to this arrangement before as it basically has the characteristics of a velocity stack all the way to the top of the throttle plate. FWIW I have used these are individual runner throttle bodies, in pairs on large MassIVe engines.... and they don't come from a Motorcycle.. I'll post pics when I get a chance. Jason, Blake recommended that I talk ton you- I know that engine is built right, so I'd definitely like to evaluate the arrangement on it... John, same goes for you.. We just need to get all 3 of the cars together and do all the comparatives the same day.. Maybe one Saturday in the next month or so??? Velocity stack could only help on this thing. I can't see anything but win coming from this. I have a bone stock car, it is a shame I am up in baltimore. Does a hot-spark module and egr/decel valve removal on L-jet still mean stock in your book? |
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| Jake Raby |
Jul 30 2009, 08:04 PM
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#19
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,394 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
It's a tapered bore, not really a stack.... But it has similar characteristics. Its built right in.
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| Pat Garvey |
 Jul 30 2009, 08:25 PM
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#20
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Do I or don't I...........? Group: Members Posts: 5,899 Joined: 24-March 06 From: SE PA, near Philly Member No.: 5,765 Region Association: North East States |
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 30 2009, 12:35 PM) QUOTE(blitZ @ Jul 30 2009, 11:28 AM) I have a 2056 with dJet you can test on if needed. What are the specs of this 2056?? I need bone stock virgin cars if possible.. I wish I could get my bone stock 1.7 to you, but we're 600 miles away....and I recently discovered some rust in the tank. I'll be watching though. Pat |
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