The title says it all..
We don't have any bone stock cars here and I have been working on a new throttle body that bolts directly to a non modified L jet or D jet plenum..

I'd only need the car for an afternoon, so hopefully someone in Atlanta or the surrounding areas can hep us gather some data on my chassis dyno..

The engine must be in a good state of tune, not worn out and not filled with "bugs" and issues.. We need a solid before and after comparative to polish off this developoment and get it on the market with known results. We have the bigger engines covered and don't need any test cars for those.

A 100.00 Gift Certificate from my store will be awarded to the two people that help us out...

Wait till you see this... Up to a 48mm taper bored throttle body that bolts right on in about 20 minutes!

How soon do you need this Jake?

Two weeks from now...

Hasnt there been a bolt on oversized throttle body available for a long time? The 2.1L vanagon throttle body is 52mm and bolts right on, and even has the VW logo to match the rest of the engine. The downside is that the entrance to the plenum is smaller, so you would still need to enlarge this on some plenums to take advantage of the larger throttle body.

Your question goes to the heart of the aftermarket situation. Build a part and market it as increasing HP by 20% and some people will flock to buy it. Later, some magazine tests it and discovers it only changes the sound or actually sometimes decreases HP.

Yes, there has been an oversized throttle body available for quite some time but there is no data to say it is of any benefit or proof that it does no harm. Jake is doing what Jake does. Like him or not, he finds out what works and acts accordingly.

Be interesting to see. Mike has one of the bored out jobs, we tried it and it made (seat of pants) less power. We messed with it for a while (timing, etc) don't think it was ever any better than stock. He just gets stock ones rebushed now.

We made these for larger displacement engines that are still using the stock plenum...

A 52mm unit may be available and bolt right on, but what if thats too big??? Bigger isn't better, especially with T/B sizing due to lean out at low speeds and "tip in" due to "big throttle body syndrome".

My intent is to see if this unit is compatible with the stock FI and offers any gains in torque, HP or RPM range so I can thoroughly understand what the unit does and effectively answer the questions of buyers that inquire about it... Thats what I do.

The unit could hurt the performance of a stock engine and thats what I need to see comparatively and back to back with my own two eyes in my environment... If the unit helps performance we need to understand why and gather data to support this exploration.

The units we are using were made application specific and can be sized in 40,42,45,and 48mm with either straight or 5* taper bores. The stock air filter or a high volume foam filter is compliant with these units. The stock throttle cable also works.

Like I said, these were made for our larger displacement engines and the unit I will be testing was particularly sized for my 2056cc-115 HP engine that is designed to utilize stock D or L jet FI.

I feel the RPM of this engine can be improved upon by a slight boost in throttle body volume. I just want to see how the stock engine responds to this as well and lay the graphs over each other for a direct comparison and understanding.

I am doing this testing objectively and no matter what I may think we must at least try the component and allow it to illustrate the big picture... Those who don't explore never get anywhere.

It will be interesting to see the results of this test. One thing that these cars seem to lack are bolt on parts that truly increase performance. It's good to see that Jake does the testing and shows exactly what you can expect and not just touting it as a bolt on that increases power by 10% like so many others do.

I have an oversized one (not a rebore) on a bone stock 2.0L. I never pulled the part number to determine what it was. Engine ran great with plenty of power till I got a little fiesty at Streets of Willow and the engine started to pull a valve thru the head (I pulled it before any disaster occured). I can pull the part number if anyone is really interested.

I have a 2056 with dJet you can test on if needed.

What are the specs of this 2056??

I need bone stock virgin cars if possible..

9550 cam
9.0 compression
cold air intake, but I could put the stock one back on.

Les, I'll take you up on the comparison.. If we could get a bone stock car here the same day for a back to back we would really learn a lot!

Jake,

We met back when the group came through ~2 years ago. I know Les and Blake and have a "bone stock" 2.0L. In fact, Blake and (mostly) Al helped with getting it rebuilt to stock condition. It has about 3000 miles on it since the rebuild. I'm in Roswell and would be happy to bring it up and let you spend some time with it.

Send me a PM if you want to do it and we can hook up.

Thanks,
Jason

You may want to contact Rich Bontempi. I understood that he has been doing this, or may have done it (bored out throttle bodies) for a while and he may have some pre-existing results from his past experience.

I cant say exactly what he has done, but I recall hearing that he was a good source for these....


Rich

Hey there Jake,
My brother has a bone stock Bumble Bee with
about 123000 fairly documented miles.
The muffler is not stock.
We could drive down and back the same day if need be.
Would this help?
John

The previous experiences of others are hearsay, until I see it and gather the data it never really hits home.. Plus there is nothing like a back to back comparative.

We have installed larger throttle bodies on the stock plenums before, including a throttle body from a Ford Taurus SHO that was 65mm.. So this isn't my first rodeo with this, but it is the first time for the current technology on a stock plenum... Thats why I must experience the differences and gather data... So I can answer your questions and challenges with absolute responses. Nothing like slapping some smart ass in the face with real data... Thats more fun than actually gathering it!

The throttle body design that I am using has never been applied to this arrangement before as it basically has the characteristics of a velocity stack all the way to the top of the throttle plate.

FWIW I have used these are individual runner throttle bodies, in pairs on large MassIVe engines.... and they don't come from a Motorcycle..
I'll post pics when I get a chance.

Jason,
Blake recommended that I talk ton you- I know that engine is built right, so I'd definitely like to evaluate the arrangement on it...
John, same goes for you.. We just need to get all 3 of the cars together and do all the comparatives the same day.. Maybe one Saturday in the next month or so???

Velocity stack could only help on this thing. I can't see anything but win coming from this.

I have a bone stock car, it is a shame I am up in baltimore.

Does a hot-spark module and egr/decel valve removal on L-jet still mean stock in your book?

It's a tapered bore, not really a stack.... But it has similar characteristics. Its built right in.

I wish I could get my bone stock 1.7 to you, but we're 600 miles away....and I recently discovered some rust in the tank.

I'll be watching though.
Pat

If by "win" you mean definitive information than I wholeheartedly agree.

Jake is using science to prove or disprove. I think sometimes people forget that proving something is not effective is just as valid science as proving it is. He proves things are not effective all the time and people give him shit for saying so... The numbers will not lie...

Yes, and also I will put my bets now that it will make a difference on a stock vehicle. The reason honda motors make so much power and flow so well is due to the fact that they do little things like this, they have internal bellmouth/velocity stacks within the intake manifolds, etc. It all adds up, and I suppose wonderful ports and valve angles do not hurt.

I did a bunch of datalogging on watercooled VW's with stock airboxes. Remove the internal velocity stack, and lose 10+/- GPS worth of air at WOT. Add a velocity stack to a K&N on the same "cold air intake' and gain 5-10 GPS again. That is an entirely different setup as well. Also faster spool with a giant laggy compressor and a velocity stack on the inlet side & same results with a smaller compressor.

That is on a 180hp turbo factory stock turbo car.

Interesting to see the results, but I have 1$ on makes a difference even if it is marginal on a stock motor.

I have even modified the stock air filter housing by shortening the runner and adding more bell onto it... The engine in my 912E picked up 4HP and 200 RPM when I did that.

Its all in the combo.

Yet again, I will remoind everyone that this unit was not developed for stock engines, but we need to know how it will work when applied to them, because we will get requests for the information as soon as I put them on the market.

Jason, you know that I've thought that you are running rich due to a bad MPS. I have a brand new one I would be glad to let you use for the test. let me know.

Jake,

I've got commitments on Saturday the 8th and the 15th. Other than that, I should be open. I'll send you a PM with all of my contact info and you or Blake can let me know when you want me to come up.

Unfortunately I'm traveling a lot this month and won't be able to keep up on the board as I'd like to.

Looking forward to getting everyoen together and seeign how this works out!

Thanks,
Jason

I'm available any time. I have a vacuum gauge if you need your MPS tested.

Jake,

How is this coming along? I heard you may be pushing this back a few weeks. Let me know. I'm back in town the end of this week and don't plan on traveling for a few weeks.

-- Jason

Any updates on this?

I have had zero time and now that the fall season is here I have even less time... We have SCCA races, land speed races, Georgia football and car shows through November every weekend..

Finding the right car, available at the right time was proving to be difficult..

I am positive that it'll work really well, just need to get the data to support that. All the parts to make them work are already made... I just don't believe the demand will be high enough for it to ever pan out.

Not that it might make much difference, but I'd buy anything to make my 1.9 Ljet more powerful, LOL.

With so few true bolt on performance parts for our cars, I would buy something that gave my 2.0 a few documented extra horsepower.

I know this is probably premature, but do you have any target range for the sales price you would have to charge for this unit? Depending upon price, I might be interested, even to the point of prepaying so that you can gauge actual sales interest.

My thanks.

Eric Read

A nice plenum and throttle body combination coupled with a replacement rubber boot for the air flow meter to throttle body would be very sweet. Kit to replace all of that, and I bet you would see real gains. You could play with shortening the intake runners too and get rid of the rubber plenum to intake runner hoses.

I think the L-jet boots are no longer available, and all of them are junk by now or held together with sealants.

The plenum on the motor I think is a problem as well after looking at it more.

Either way, if it makes power that is a win. If it replaces the l-jet throttle bodies that are now requiring custom machined bushings and modifications to not stick, seal well and etc it is still a win.

I looked at another 2 throttle bodies this weekend, same as mine with excess shaft play and probably leaking an excess of unmetered intake air behind the air flow meter!

Thats never stopped you. I am very suprised to see Jake doing this. I am almost certain that in the past Jake has said that oversized throttle bodies are of no value. It was a few years ago. I remember because my 914 with a 2270 with a 48mm bore TB that was dynoed and featured in Excellence. There was quite a stir on the old site regarding the mods. Anyway I went to a larger 55mm TB with a modified stock plenum to fit the TB and gained 4-5 hp & #ft across the rpm range.

The only thing that stays the same is that everything changes... What happened on the old site was with the older mindset and older technoology and engine combinations.

As I continually experiment with combinations we must also experiemnt with things that hadn't worked in days past.

Closing the mind STOPS performance and further developments. That means we have to do things that we think don't work and that haven't worked in the past.

Your approach to developement is awesome!

What about my 912E Jake, stock except for the tangerine

Most HP enhancements require significant mechanical work on our cars. This sounds like something anyone can do, so there should be a larger than average customer pool.

Did anything ever come of this?

Nope. Everyone was looking for a handout so I did the testing with my own car.

It did not prove to be effective, in fact I am swapping my car back to the stock TB next time I get the chance to work on it.