I Found 4th and 5th, It's ALIVE - Thanks THOMAS & Dr. Evil! Options

[ericread]

I finished rebuilding my transmission at the SoCal Dr. Evil workshop last Saturday (9/19/09). Everything is ready to go, but I can't find 4th or 5th - it feels like it neutral where 4th and 5th should be.

I've read dozens of threads regarding adjusting the shift bar, but I'm still not smart enough to figure it out.

I am assuming I need to turn the shift bar a few splines either clockwise or counter-clockwise? Am I on the right track? How do I do that???

Reverse and 1st through 3rd work great.

Eric

[ahdoman]

Eric,
What did you expect for getting a deal? You have to pay extra for 4th & 5th!

Sorry, just had to push the button... it sounds like your linkage bar is misaligned, I assume you've lined up the cone screws (one at the trans coupling and one at the firewall? If so you'll need to adjust the shift bar where it connects to the shifter. Before you pull it out mark the orientation of the bar. Then pull it out and turn it clockwise (to the right) a spline or two. You may have to play with it a little to get it oriented so that it goes into every gear.

[davep]

You can find 4th & 5th to the right of 2nd & 3rd (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Oh wait, you knew that!
Generally you can adjust the shift rod either at the gearshift or at the access hole near the firewall (the preferred location). I believe you need to rotate the rear shaft to the right (clockwise facing forward) one spline at a time to get the adjustment.

[ericread]

Eric,
What did you expect for getting a deal? You have to pay extra for 4th & 5th!

Sorry, just had to push the button... it sounds like your linkage bar is misaligned, I assume you've lined up the cone screws (one at the trans coupling and one at the firewall? If so you'll need to adjust the shift bar where it connects to the shifter. Before you pull it out mark the orientation of the bar. Then pull it out and turn it clockwise (to the right) a spline or two. You may have to play with it a little to get it oriented so that it goes into every gear.

Firstly, I DID pay Dr. Evil extra for 4th and 5th... Hmmm.....I wonder if the check cleared. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

The cone screws are in and correct. So how do you move the shift bar clockwise? I had the bar apart a couple of times, but I couldn't seem to turn the bar clockwise... Should I have it in neutral before I detach the bar to do this?

Thanks for your advice in advance! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[ClayPerrine]

Ok.. here is the easy way.

1. Take off the cover on the side shift console attached to the transmission.

2. Put the transmission in second gear at the shift console. This can be done by putting the arm in the middle of its vertical travel, and pulling rearward on it.

3. Disconnect the shifter from the shaft under the shifter by loosening the pinch bolt and shifting in the direction of third gear.

4. Place the shifter against the spring loaded gate and feed the rod into the coupler on the shifter. Push it until it is in the second gear position.

5. At the shift console, push forward on the arm until the trans drops into neutral.

6. Center the shifter fore and aft, and tighten the pinch bolt.


It sounds easy, but getting the rod in the shifter is the bitch.. you have to have something to hold it up in that tight space.


Let me know if this works for you.

[computers4kids]

Hey Eric,
Clay's directions are pretty good. I would add that if you unbolt all three of the bolts that connect the shifter to the body of the car it will make it a lot easier to adjust the splines in the correct position.

With the pinch bolt just loose, I like to take a pair of channel locks and rotate the splines a notch or two while holding the shifter in second gear postion..then tighten. With the bolts off you will be able to tighten the pinch bolt easier. Once the pinch bolt is tight you can bolt the shifter down to the body. Go for a drive with a pair of channel locks, 13mm on a rachet and do any final adjustments.

Hey...come to think about it, wasn't that the 4th 5th bands that I gave you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ericread]

Well, I'm done for the evening (I'm really, really old)

Clay; I found that connecting two tie-wraps in a circle, and placing them under the shift pinch-bolt assembly greatly eased the issue of aligning the pinch-bolt assy to the shifter bar.

Mark; Yep, those were your bands. Hmmmmm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) Is this one of those "send me money and I'll activate them" deals??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I like your idea to loosen the other two bolts. My real problem is getting the shift bar to rotate. I seemed to replace the shift bar in the exact location I started - four times.

Dr. Evil's workshop was a blast. And Leamon was great in letting us make a mess of... err... use his shop. I'll post my pictures in the next day or so.

Thanks everybody!

Eric

[ahdoman]

Eric - bad news; remember, I helped you install the the "C" rings on those gears. Between Mark's "faulty" rings and my "expertise" assembly pratices you might be hosed!

[ericread]

Eric - bad news; remember, I helped you install the the "C" rings on those gears. Between Mark's "faulty" rings and my "expertise" assembly pratices you might be hosed!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol3.gif)

Would you guys knock it off? It is becming more and more apparent that I was a total slacker Saturday.

As a result of my technical workmanship, Mark's rings and your assembly skills, I would expect that the only gears working would be 4th and 5th!

[ahdoman]

What about 6th? Is it not working either? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif)

Seriously Eric, I had a great time meeting you and working in "your space". Take the night off and then tomorrow follow Clay's directions and it will all fall into place. If I was closer I'd be glad to run over and help.

[Dave_Darling]

If you adjust and adjust, and you still can't find 4th/5th, take a look at what your clutch cable is doing when you try to move the gear shift lever into that plane. If the cable moves side to side, you've got a busted clutch tube bracket. It can be welded in-place (ask McMark; he did the job on mine!) or you can cut up the center tunnel to get at it.

The tube, when it has come loose, can interfere with the lateral motion of the gear shift lever.

--DD

[Dr Evil]

I am glad Clay wrote it up.....I get tired of repeating myself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

4th and 5th will work when you are worthy, not before (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[charliew]

I'm just lurking but this confuses me a little. If the shifter is adjusted properly and you remove and rebuild the tranny does that mean it doesn't go back exactly at the forks to use the old adjustment settings or that it is adjusted over time and gets off then must be put back where it belongs after a rebuild and resetting of the forks?

[degreeoff]

Hey Doc, you ahhhh thinkin this maybe why my inards had that sign of wear?

Reason I ask is I am having trouble shifting too. Will the blurb above be a good starting place?

Thanks for the thread Eric....saves me from sounding like a putz....(not that ur a putz, just I have all this work that I have done to my car and can't get it to shift right....!)

[ahdoman]

Degreeoff - after my /6 rebuild and install (including a rebuilt trans) I really had to push hard to the left to get my car to go into 1st and reverse. After doing the proceedure like Clay explained it now shifts very clean and smooth.

Remember all; there are 3 linkage points in our shift mechanisms. 2 of them are fixed by the cone screws so they can't change. Only one location will allow you to adjust the rotation and front to rear adjustment (assuming that all your bushings are good), that is where the rod meets the shifter. You'd be suprised at how much a little rotation makes a difference.

[Dr Evil]

If your internal shift forks are adjusted correctly (and yours are, I did it), then your shifting issues are external. I am having a hard time with the clarity of your problems so I will address the top 3:

1. I cant find "insert gear numbers here"

If you cant find gears that are on the same plane; 1-3-5, R-2-4, 1-R, 4-5, then your shifter bar adjustment is off.
If you cant find 1-3-5 or R-2-4 then you need to loosen the pinch bolt and slide the shift lever TOWARDS the gears that you CAN find; if you have R-2-4 and need 1-3-5, move the lever more towards the front of the car when the bolt is loose. This will shorten the shift rod and give you more pull in the 1-3-5- plane.
***With your problem of not finding 4-5 you must adjust the L-R plane.
Q1. How do you know you have R-1, and 2-3? 2-3 can easily be in the R-1 position and 4-5 would then be in the 2-3 position. This would make you shifting seem to stop after 3rd gear. If this is the case you need to:
- Loosen the pinch bolt
- Move your stick shift towards the drivers side while keeping the shift rod in the tunnel from moving.
- Re-tighten the pinch bolt with the stick shift held in the new position
- Discover the missing gears.

Now you are ready to find the real second gear and adjust your shifter as stated in the post above.

2. After a rebuild, it is hard to get it into gear = need more strength.
This is perfectly normal for a while after a rebuild. Synchro bands vary in their stiffness and thus how easy they collapse. New ones are very stiff, older ones are easier to use. If your shift linkage is adjusted correctly, and it is not grinding when shifting, then you are fine and need to man up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
The newer/new synchro bands will cause any weak or worn out parts of your shift linkage to fail so fix it now or on the side of the road.

3. Grinds when going into gear or pops out of gear once in.
this is an actual problem. Grinding should not happen on a rebuild. Poping out of gear, so long as it is not that the linkage is not adjusted correctly, is not acceptable on a rebuild either.
1st will grind sometimes after a rebuild depending on if you are down shifting with the tranz still spooled up. It should not be more than minor, though and you need to check your clutch cable to make sure your clutch is totally disengaging.

Charlie,
you need to adjust the linkage every time you pull the engine or tranny. You will not be able to align the drive train exactly the same in the car and any movement of the drive train with relation to the car (where the shift linkage is affixed) will throw off the pattern. That is why bad engine or tranny mounts can cause shifting issues.

[ericread]

OK - Here's the update.

After trying to get 4th and 5th for about a day and a half, I took my car over to a fellow teener, Thomas over at EDM in Santa Ana. He is a master machinist and has several 914 projects. After dinking with my shift adjustment for about an hour, he agreed that I do not have the ability to select 4th or 5th gears.

How could this be, you ask??? Well, let me tell you. When he was manually setting the transmission into 2nd gear, he noticed that the ball pin (the part that attaches to the shift fingers on the bearing bracket assembly) was loose. Very loose. Even with the roll pin properly set, it was very loose.

Now I remember late Saturday evening when Dr. Evil took a look at that very assembly, he had a somewhat disapproving look. I asked him if that was bad, and the Dr. replied "It's not good, but it yours".

Thomas thought that although R and 1 through 4 shifted very well, the tolerance was so loose on that ball that I was unable to select 4th and 5th. The good news is that after taking various parts from his bins, he was able to build an assembly with zero play. (Although the first complete unit looked great compared to mine, he wouldn't let me leave until he had re-assembled a perfect one - TOO COOL!)

Anyway, I will drain the tranny oil tomorrow, remove the linkage and replace the shift fork assembly. I will report back here my success, or not success...

That's it for now.

Eric

[Dr Evil]

Thomas is good people (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So your was the one with the concerning second click? The slop was not an issue when I inspected it, but it seems to have developed into something bad. If it were to be a box problem, Thomas is who I was gonna send you to for investigation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

[JazonJJordan]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
(my red racer "Please" is up on blocks as a 2-3, 4-5 gear only. I also has a pass side engine bar bolt shear off and shifty engine (Yuck!) so rustoration in progress. It was time....thanks for the tech-know guys!)

If your internal shift forks are adjusted correctly (and yours are, I did it), then your shifting issues are external. I am having a hard time with the clarity of your problems so I will address the top 3:

1. I cant find "insert gear numbers here"

If you cant find gears that are on the same plane; 1-3-5, R-2-4, 1-R, 4-5, then your shifter bar adjustment is off.
If you cant find 1-3-5 or R-2-4 then you need to loosen the pinch bolt and slide the shift lever TOWARDS the gears that you CAN find; if you have R-2-4 and need 1-3-5, move the lever more towards the front of the car when the bolt is loose. This will shorten the shift rod and give you more pull in the 1-3-5- plane.
***With your problem of not finding 4-5 you must adjust the L-R plane.
Q1. How do you know you have R-1, and 2-3? 2-3 can easily be in the R-1 position and 4-5 would then be in the 2-3 position. This would make you shifting seem to stop after 3rd gear. If this is the case you need to:
- Loosen the pinch bolt
- Move your stick shift towards the drivers side while keeping the shift rod in the tunnel from moving.
- Re-tighten the pinch bolt with the stick shift held in the new position
- Discover the missing gears.

Now you are ready to find the real second gear and adjust your shifter as stated in the post above.

2. After a rebuild, it is hard to get it into gear = need more strength.
This is perfectly normal for a while after a rebuild. Synchro bands vary in their stiffness and thus how easy they collapse. New ones are very stiff, older ones are easier to use. If your shift linkage is adjusted correctly, and it is not grinding when shifting, then you are fine and need to man up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
The newer/new synchro bands will cause any weak or worn out parts of your shift linkage to fail so fix it now or on the side of the road.

3. Grinds when going into gear or pops out of gear once in.
this is an actual problem. Grinding should not happen on a rebuild. Poping out of gear, so long as it is not that the linkage is not adjusted correctly, is not acceptable on a rebuild either.
1st will grind sometimes after a rebuild depending on if you are down shifting with the tranz still spooled up. It should not be more than minor, though and you need to check your clutch cable to make sure your clutch is totally disengaging.

Charlie,
you need to adjust the linkage every time you pull the engine or tranny. You will not be able to align the drive train exactly the same in the car and any movement of the drive train with relation to the car (where the shift linkage is affixed) will throw off the pattern. That is why bad engine or tranny mounts can cause shifting issues.

[Dr Evil]

OK, as I was falling a sleep this morning I remembered the issue you spoke of, Eric. My intention was that you hold off and we address the looseness, but I guess that somehow we didnt and it was assembled as is. It is interesting that you got R-3 on that set up but not 4-5. I am sorry that I was not clear on the need to get that slop taken care of. When I said, "Sure, its not my transmission" I was trying to be funny and to indicate that it needs to be fixed. Sorry for the extra bit of work it caused you and I am glad you were able to handle it. I was more concerned about the stack than the console as the console is easy to remove, fix and install.