The collection knowledge on this board is pretty impressive - so here's the question - I know that I want to build a GT clone car. It doesn't need to be a dead on replica of a real GT (I simply don't have the budget for it), but I want it to be reasonably close. The car will almost certainly have a 2.5L twin plug motor, but past that I am still putting together the list of things that I definetly want and the nice to have's (if I can find them at a reasonable price).

The first big question that I need to answer though is what base car to start with - a 914 or a 914/6? Granted, modifying a 6 is not something that one would do lightly - the car is just too cool and too rare to simply start hacking away. But if I were to find a non-operable car, would all of the 6 parts that would come with it justify the incremental cost? Just looking at the cost of real 6 heat exchangers, oil systems, brakes, suspension, etc, it almost seems to me that buying a 6 and starting the project from there is the way to go.

What do you guys think?

Thanks for your advice.

Mike

IMHO I would start with a rust free 4 and add all the GT goodies. Your going to replace or rebuild almost everything. Starting with a 6 just costs you more for the initial purchase.

It is very cool to start with a /6. However, from reading your post it sounds like you're on a budget. Starting with a real /6 is probably going to put you 10 grand in from the start, where as you can always find a reasonable /4. Also, regardless if it's a /6 or /4, it will still be a replica.

Just my .02 cents


Can't wait to see another Resto thread!

Maybe start with one that's a good bit of the way there? (No affiliation. Just saw it on the Bird Board...)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-car...repro-sale.html

I have to agree.. If you take a car that already has flares done right or has a six installed properly, you will save a ton of time and money.

Mike,

I would have to say your project is an oxymoron!

Any car, be it a real 6 or a 4 with a 2.5L twin plug is not going to be on a budget!

The motor itself is a big ticket item. 89mm Mahles? JE pistons and cylinders? Twin plugging the heads. What sort of injection are you planning on? What would be accurate for that 2.5L would be 46IDA Webers.

Then what sort of gearbox are you going to build to get the most out of that motor? What gears, most of what you would want are going to run $200-$250 each. Then you would probably want a LSD as well.

Between the motor and gearbox you are at least $15K.

How much body work are you willing to do? Investing in a relatively decent 6 is a sunk cost for your project, you won't recoup anything on the parts. If you find a rough six with damage maybe more practical.

Perhaps starting with a 4 that already has some work done to it is the most economical way of going at it. GT and GT style parts are getting more expensive, good 6's are getting more expensive. BUT, a 6 with a hodgepodge of parts and an incorrect motor isn't ever going to bring the money back.

Peter

Thanks for all of the responses so far guys.

To be clear, when I say that I have a budget, I don't mean the I have a limited dollar amount to work with. What I mean is that I'm going to set a dollar amount in advance that I think will cover the costs to build the car that I want to build. I don't want a sinkhole of a project, but I don't want to needlessly limit myself or waste money either.

Make sense?

If you're going to make a gt clone then start with a four, no need to modify an original /6.

[Flame suit on]
If you're going through all the trouble to make a GT clone, use a real /6!
[Flame suit off]


That's what people used to use them for, race cars.
In fact, i know of a few 914 race cars in this area that have a real /6 VIN.


The factory did it ...
Andy

Andy brings up a valid point (as always), what will the car be used for? AutoX, street, show, fun, etc?

If you're going to go through all the trouble of doing this a real 6gt would be worth more and much cooler. However, it will cost a bit more for your base

Time to play devil's advocate here...

Why would you modify a /6? It's not going to be a real GT and it never will be. You need history and provenance for that, and your stated intention is to make a clone anyway. I think your best bet would be to start with a /4 that has been converted to a /6 and go from there.

But he stated from the beginning that he's not looking to do an exact replica - just something that looks close.

I would start with a 4. If your going to sink a bunch of money into a 6, your better off returning it to stock to retain any value.

First off, why would you "lose" money if you turned a /6 into a /6 GT?
The only time people pay top $$$ for a /6 is if it is a all original, low mileage, exceptionally preserved car. How many of those are still out there?

I venture to guess that if i rebuild my original /6 into a GT clone i could sell it for just as much $$$ as if i did a stock rebuild.

Secondly, a lot of real /6 were build into GTs, m471s and GT inspired race cars in the '70s. Some by the factory, many more by individuals.
I don't believe that you need any sort of racing pedigree to build a nice GT. Why does it matter if you converted your /6 to a GT in 1970 or in 2010? The process is still pretty much the same and some of the parts used today are probably better than the parts that were used 40 years ago.

Case in point, there's a nice replica of the Jagermeister GT here in the bay area. Despite a few nagging "mistakes" made by the builder, it's a very nice car.
Build on a '74 /4 chassis.
Now if that one was build on a real /6 chassis, i'd be all over it.

Andy

I think stock 6's are fast becoming too good and rare to butcher into a GT Replica. If a six had already been converted into a racer I would use something like that without many qualms.

I want to build a six - not a GT replica, but what 'I' want, I would go through changes to the brakes, suspension, engine and interior so basically it needs totally rebuilding, in which case I would prefer to use a slightly ratty 4, which can be breathed back into life.

I have a 4 which is in v good condition and have been tempted to increase it's performance/handling etc, but I have decided to keep it factory looking with a few upgrades under the skin and then buy another shell and accumulate parts over time to build 'my' 916

It depends on how "accurate" you want to be. Ask Peter.

If there's a point you feel the 914.xxx.xxxx VIN will play a factor then start there. All of the GT builds, factory or otherwise, are fairly well documented at this point. Anything new will have to be done "top notch" or it will just be another car, -6 or not -6.

IMO, if it's not going to be done to the degree Peter's car (or Armando's or Jeff's Split Pea) was finished in, it would be a mistake to use a -6 for a clone or tribute or whatever you want to call it today. There is no structural difference between that chassis and a 1970 -4 chassis.

I'm using a -4. And, while I've gone kinda crazy on it, I didn't go the route Peter did. That would be my guide so... for me, if you don't use:

Original lids
Original bumpers
Original seats
etc... (I think you get the point)

...you'll be potentially hurting the value of a -6. Again, all dependent on the work performed etc.

I guess it all depends on what you start with. If your project car is a disaster, then your going to spend a lot of money no matter if you bring it back to show condition or make it a GT replica. If you start with something halfway decent, why spend the extra money to put flares on, get new wheels, interior, etc. You see it all the time at auctione like BJ where a bone stock car commands more as it was originally built than ones that are turned into tribute cars or clones.

I didn't think his intention was to flip his car for a profit.

But even then, if you need to restore the 914/6, it'll never command top dollars.
All the ones i have seen that went for over $30k were low mileage, original cars.
I don't think any restored /6 will sell in that range for quite a few years to come.

Given the choice between a nicely restored stock /6 and a nicely restored GT replica /6 i just don't think the stock car would fetch significantly more.

Andy

Show or go?
Do you want a rad 914 to drive in the next 2 years, or are you looking for that "it's never done" 10 year build?
That's how I would decide 4 vs 6 platform. If you want a drawn out project to cruise and show, start with a real 6. I would buy a decent GT clone and focus on refreshing it with that wild motor you have planned, which will cost as much as the starting platform.
Wonder why Andy didn't offer up his shell? Hmmmm

butcher?

It's still for sale ...

Well, these things always seem to get legs once they are started. And, the dollar amount that you have established for yourself seems to DOUBLE, with extra time in unforeseen labor, parts that are unavailable and needed NOW, and those little odds and ends that might " be cool".

Be very careful, that it a slippery slope when going this route. They add up quick.

Ask Eric and TC, they are the most recent people who are doing GT replica's.

Perhaps, what you should do, go thru Armando's site, and make a list for yourself, what you want in parts and what you want in modifications to the car.

And once you have that list, then perhaps ask here what each of these are realistically going to cost?

Will you be doing most of the work yourself or having someone do it for you??

Peter

If you took a /4 and a /6 and built them to into a GT clone of the exact same level, would the /6 command significantly more money if sold? Would the difference even cover the initial outlay of the car? I don't know the answer. I do know that a /4 and /6 chassis built to the same level would both drive the same on the road and what it's VIN is wouldn't make a difference.

I think we can all agree that the true question here is, "How important are those first three numbers to you?"

If the VIN doesn't make a difference, then why NOT use a real /6 ???
Andy

Because real /6's cost more?

I got mine for $500 ...

Andy

Wow. I walked right in to that trap, lol.

I'd find a solid /4 even if money is no object. You can feel good about doing whatever you want and whatever makes sense on a /4 base. Whereas with a real /6 I'd be hesitant to really go too far...

Asking for advice is great, but in the end it will come down to you and what car platforms are available to start with.

I will give you 2 perspectives

#1, I had a 74 914 2.0 that I owned foe 14 years and thru the years it became a GT Look, close to what you are looking for. Flares, nice Fuchs, 2.5 Twin-Plug, rebuilt 901 Tranny with custom gears. I wasn't planning on getting rid of it, but I did and basically got the Motor money out of the car.

#2, My current GT Recreation. It is a Real -6 that the very next Vin was a Real GT.
I bought this car rusted to beat the band, so anything I did was going to be OK. I had a set of Factory Flares (the only thing that should go on a Real -6 IMHO) so they went on to make a M-471 Look. I had a few GT parts, but the car was just going back to -6 with Flares. Then I bought another Real -6 that came a Ton of Real GT parts. After trying to restore 2 914-6s at one time, I sold the 2nd car but kept all the GT parts to use on the 1st car. Then I have bought more & more Real GT parts. The parts alone that I have, would buy a Nice 914-6.

Do what you want with what you want, just be aware it will be a time consuming, money-grabbing mistress. Take your budget and double it Right Now. That way, you won't give up in the middle.

Some $$$ estimates

a 2.5 Twin-Plug will set you back at least $15k. The ignition will be $1,200 to $2,500

You will need a rebuilt tranny & what the heck have a spare handy - with special gears & lsd $2-2,500

Flares, bodywork, & paint $15k

Wheels & tires $1,500 - 6,000

T.C.

TC, are you sure you don't share some blood with my Dad? He's the same way!

Me: "Dad, why don't you just get repros, it's the same thing for half the price?"
Dad: ".... I want the 'Porsche' stamp to come on mine..."

This sounds like my brain on drugs ..
The 914-6 GT ( real or memorex) is a personal decision BUT if you plan on tracking it , build or buy a -4 . Hurt it badly and you just find another donor.
I have both.....I had porsche flairs to add to the real one and couldn't go through with it although it already has stiffening kit and some other "cuts" to prelclude its status as a virgin....... Found a GT replica sitting in a garage and frankly the money deal tells me you need to find one that someone has lost interest in because they are out there. Ran the real six off the track without damage and was convinced it was a bad plan hence the -4 route. That said, I fully believe today you can spend less and get a GT by starting with a -4. So my two cents is as schizo as this whole thread has been ...but now I feel so much better ......
TOT
P.S. Incidentally the white one on bird site......high teens, no motor, no engine, mount, or aux oil color and 10 year old tires ......nice car but theres a 30K + conversion GT easily !!! TC sold his (blue car...right?) for nothing if I recall and it was respectable.

I have to agree with Andy. Build on a /6 if you can get one for the right price.

In the long run even a tribute car built on the right number chassis would be worth more than a tribute built on the wrong set of numbers. You also won't have to mess with the wireing as it is already done as well as the dash.
The motor is it's own can of worms. I like the twin plug.

If I could afford a /6 I would have gone that route. At the time, I went with what I could afford on my car budget. It still took a long time to get done. I am still putting it back together. Maybe fire it back up on this weekend or Monday.

Now if you just want to get the look of the GT and all of the torque of the /4 and drive it while you spend 10k min. on the twin plug beastie, that works.

yup 500 but what are you selling it for???
I have been hounding a guy for his rough 6 to do a full orig resto
and i will be lucky if he even calls me back...
if i could grab a six roller for 2000 i would think i am ... lucky
....
very lucky
....


if i was just doing a GT look i would start with a four
oh yes and i did
resale...forget about it
if it is done well 50 cents on the dollar

I'll add my 2 cents because that's all I have left after doing my conversion . I started with a 1975 rolling chassis . My vision was to create a M471 clone and I thought if I did all the work myself I could do it for around $12,000.00. To say the least I was waaaaaaaaaaay off on the estimate and I really don't think I did anything out of the ordinary. I don't have a super built engine just a stock 3.0 with Weber carbs I did not touch any motor internals. Yes I completely rebuilt the suspension with new polybronze bushings but stock torsion bars up front. I got in on the AA flared fender group buy a few years ago so saved some coin there. I bought lots of used parts off this site and others. Did all the chassis stiffening I thought was needed and did all the welding myself. I did farm out the repaint but got a great job for $2,000.00. Bottom line is if you are really going to do this as others have said double the budget you think it will take. I've been working on mine for 3 years plus and I just got it running this past week. For me this was a labor of love and never in my thought process was rate of return vs. investment because I'm not planning on selling her. I hope you go out and save another chassis from the crusher and enjoy every minute of the restoration. Good luck.

I woukd say start with a solid car. rust repairs, etc, might add to the cost, the project will take longer and you might loose interest before even putting on flares, etc.
I would never use a real six, unless I was going for an exact GT replica. If you just like the GT look, start with a rustfree 914-4.
If you use an early 914 ( mine is a 1971 car) then at least the year is correct.
If you want the race it, and it's a real six,.. you won't feel happy when this happens,....:

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment


(yes, that's a 914-6)

Finding a 98% rust free 914/6 for $28000.00. Having a Master Card in my name only, to hide all the other costs of building my GT from my wife. Priceless!

Take what ever you think you will spend, times two.

That sucks man...

It sure does. I've seen this car ( it's in the same workshop as my car ) and it doesn't look pretty..

I found the video of the crash on the internet:
Youtube 914 video

Here's the car before this all happened:
Link 914-6

There sure are alot of spectators awfully close to the racing circuit!!

Especially for how high that car went in the air!!


Peter