Given todays economic climate, possible scaricity of fuel, and of course just the raw challenge of building a car with high mpg,
we should have a thread on cars of this nature, in production,prototypes,homebuilts, concepts and pictures.
( I wish i had the time and energy to build a car with a sub 1 litre engine, and maybe one day i will)

but lets keep it to combustion power, for now

Europe has always used small engine in small cars, think 1.2 litre gas engines and small efficient diesels. I dont understand why this country feels the need to have massive v8 cars and trucks and not enough compact cars.

The original Audi A2 was a remarkable car:

http://www.audiworld.com/news/01/A2TDI/content.shtml

Kind of like a Honda Fit, but with a 1.2L TDI, for 2.99 L/100 km fuel economy (78.7 mpg). There's a new A2 out in Europe:

http://www.allautoreviews.com/auto_reviews/audi/audi-a2.htm

... but it seems more focused on performance than economy.

A guy here is putting a Turbo hyabusa 1300 in his triumph, although I don't think for fuel efficiency

I was wondering how much the E85 sensors are to run a flex fuel in my 914.

I fully expect to convert my Dad's car to electricity someday.... just not in the next 10-15 years...

Most Europeans also only own 1 car. I don't understand why this country feels the need to own 3 914s instead of just one

Woodgas ...

lets skip political conjecture and focus on high effeciency combustion cars

I was reading some information on GDI (Gas Direct Injection) the other day.

They were getting better fuel mileage, and better torque by injecting the fuel directly into the combustion chamber. It allowed for leaner mixtures because of less 'wet-walling' and more precisely controllwed injection timing. The fuel was able to keep squirting while it was still burning.

More power in diesel fuel which equates to better mileage which is why they are all over Europe.

Want ultra efficient? Don't drive a large vehicle the size of your living room.

In Spain a few years ago, the largest normal car on the road was VW Jetta sized.

Most vehicles were sized like that Audi A2, and in that environment, a Smart car looked not so out of place.

100hp factory rated 1.3L twin cam Suzuki Swift GTI engine bolted to Samurai 5 sp. Custom header, Fuel injected, chipped.

size matters in a car wreck ..theres more to life then mileage

That's an MG Midget.
( Oh, wait,.. this isn't the "guess that car" thread ;-) )

Here's a likewise car, under 2 liters, over 200bhp.
K-Series in MG Midget

Can't tow 16K lbs with a 1.4litre toy. Don't want to drive 2000 miles in a trip in a beer can. Don't want to get flattened by soccer mom in suburban. This is America. Free market determined they want cars you can fit several people in and gas mileage be damned. In Europe the government decided what would be sold. The rich didn't want the average Joe riding around in a big car possibly upstaging them. That would be bad.

I have nothing against ultra efficient vehicles, but realize not everyone wants them or cares and that doesn't make them bad people. I don't want to get in a wreck driving a shitbox smart car. I really don't want to get hit in my Prelude, Civic, 914 etc. But those are much bigger cars. Plus I like going fast. so 1.5 litres and less is boring.

We have a 08 Toyota Yaris it is 1.5 liter 106hp. can actually fit 4 adults, comfortably. I almost got a smart car, but test drove it and the yaris the same day, in the smart it was a shoulder to shoulder experience.. the is quite alot of room in the yaris. it has good crash results, also. I dont drive in "eco mode" by any means and get mid 30's for mpg with mixed driving.. on highway trips we get over 40mpg, thats not in the slow lane, keeping with the flow of traffic. it is a awesome well proven drive trrrain, it is the same basic engine that has been in the echo for quite some time... 200k miles are very common with no mechanical repairs. I did drop it with TRD springs and MOMO Winter alloys, and a jl audio system to make it a little different.

Click to view attachment

Thats what my solstice has. I can drive like a maniac and still get 18mpg and thats with 330hp and 350lb. If I drive it normal it gets 30mpg.

Small motor in a more aero body and lighter as well and you would have a pretty low mpg car.

I started driving a 2005 Scion xB a few years ago for my daily driver. 1.5l engine has ~100 hp and moves it faily well and gets 34 - 35 mpg. Very roomy even with 4 adults and it isn't the smallest thing on the highway. The looks/styling has to grow on you though

Paul

As far as small not being safe, I believe it all matter on the situation,,, small low car vs big full size truck, head on or side impact... truck will win mostly due to bumper car height. Into a fixed object is a different story, I rember a youtube vid of a smart car into concrete wall, the smart car look liker a crushed beer can , but the interior cabin was completely intact, the door still opened and closed fine, and interior g's on the occupant was less then half that of old tank cars. the body absorbed the impact like it was designed to do. I do believe you must drive more defensively in a smaller car, But everyone should drive what they feel comfortable in, thats what makes America wonderful,

A friend of mine has a 93 honda civic "lean burn". He gets near 50mpg...


Seriously why arent we utilizing THAT technology??? Damn things got like 230k miles on it as well.


VW/Audi uses direct fuel injection on all their new engines. Lots of company's do.

The best mileage of any car I've ever owned was the '73 914 1.7 back about 1976 or so. Stock 165 tires, Imperial gallons (25% larger than a US gallon), and the gas of the day that I believe was somewhat better than today. I would get about 40 MPG highway, and sometimes 50 on a long cruise.
Not only that, but the 914 was more fun and laughs per mile than any other car as well.

i wonder what jake could do to a 1.7 to make it even more fuel effecient

FWIW, my commute car is a 2009 Honda Fit Sport, with the paddle-shift AT. It replaced my '98 M3, which while enjoyable, was the most expensive car to maintain I've ever owned, used premium fuel, and got about 19 mpg on my commute. I replaced the skinny OEM tires with 205/50's, which helped handling and braking. It's a really fun car, I can drive it flat-out with barely anyone noticing, and still get 30 mpg on my commute. On flat highway drives it gets 40+ mpg. Extremely practical, gobs of front and rear seating room, fold-flat rear seats for a huge cargo area. Full of safety features, too. 5-star crash ratings, airbags galore, seatbelt tighteners, and active front headrests. It's also reasonably cute looking and fun to drive. 100K miles before the first tune-up, too.

There is a lot to be said for the guys that are dropping newer engines into older chassis. I've seen reports from a few of the guys that dropped Suby STi engines into 914's that were getting mid 30's for their highway MPGs. Normally that engine would only get mid to low 20's for highway mileage in the much heavier STi and that's a 2.5L engine.

How about the VW Polo, 1.3 G40?
that would be a nice hot hatch!!

Lean burn is no longer in favor because it produces more NOx than current standards allow.

Diesels are vastly popular in most of Europe in large part due to the fuel taxes; diesel fuel is taxed much less heavily than gasoline. In the UK, where the two are taxed a closer amount, gasoline cars are still more popular.

Small lightweight low-powered aerodynamic cars are the most efficient, in general. Ever been in a Geo Metro? Think about using one every day on your commute. And think about the late-chugging makeup-applying screaming-at-children soccer mom in her Expedition. (Or, conversely, the breakfast-eating still-shaving newspaper-reading man in his F150 King Kong Cab pickup.)

I really like my CRX, and it gets by far the most use out of any of the cars we have in my household. But it's definitely not for everyone...

Google "ford probe iv" to see a very aero-slick concept car that got good fuel economy. Wander over to http://www.aerocivic.com for a look at a serious home-brew aerodynamic Civic which is ugly as hell but quite functional. It would be interesting to see what could be done in that vein by someone who wasn't trying to do it as cheap as humanly possible... If we could lose the currently-standard ideas of what makes a car good-looking, we could have cars that got significantly better freeway mileage. But I still couldn't drive the Aero Civic on a daily basis.

Sandy's Sprite (pictured above) should be a hoot to drive, and get at least half-decent mileage. The aero won't be great, but a nice modern modestly-powered engine and light weight should help it get decent numbers.

...Oh, gearing! Can't forget gearing! For cruising steady-state you want the absolute tallest possible gearing you can get. (You can go too far with it, but you are unlikely to with any reasonably-available OEM gears.) One reason the current Vettes get 30 MPG on the freeway is because they can cruise at 60 MPH at something like 1500 RPM. If you had a smaller engine with the same gearing, you would have to use more throttle to maintain that but you'd get even better economy.

More research you can do: Google "throttle pumping loss" and "BFSC map" to get an idea of how efficient different throttle openings are. (Hint: About 75% open is generally better than almost closed.) For tons and tons of ideas, see http://www.ecomodder.com and look for the "master list of modifications" that save gas. Most of them are things we wouldn't choose to do for various reasons (aesthetics, convenience, etc.) but some of them are quite easy and not that obvious.

--DD

my get to work beater is a '95 geo metro, i drive like i stole it and get 39mpg back and forth to work 9 miles one way. i took it on a roas trip over the mountains and got 48 mpg. it has over 116k miles and is definately built like a disposable car, but it was cheap to buy, has saved me a shit load in money for gas when i had to drive my daughter 240 miles a week to school, and it seems to be the magical parking spot finder for going to big events where parking is scarce [some one always leaves 14' between cars that i can tuck it in to].

now if i could find some thing that rode quieter and better and still got 30- 40 mpg i'd be all over it. but nothing like that is cheap enough to buy.

talk about old cars new engines... i'd love to do a '64-66' mustang with a modern 2L fuel injected 4 cyl with a 5 speed tranny. they got high teens mid twenty's with the old 190 cid inline six adn a 3 speed manual!

My college car was a 1996 Chevy Beretta. A decent sized car that got 37 mpg. Granted it was only 120 hp or so with a manual transmission...but it wasn't a shitbox shoebox sized car. And it was a little more stylish than most cheap cars (ignoring the Corsica style front).

They can make decent sized cheap cars that get good gas mileage and don't look like crap. They just don't want to.

DD, that article on the AeroCivic got me thinking about how so often designers and engineers don't really take the drag coefficient into account. My 95 Eclipse has an unusually low CD which helps it get ~40 mpg highway with a heavy 2.0 NA engine. I know a couple of guys that have gone to the crazy lengths of putting a complete underpanel on theirs and have seen a few extra MPG's on the highway. It's something I've seriously looked at for my own vechicle

My favorite gas-sipper was my 92 Honda Civic VX. It has no sound deadening, no carpet padding, hardly any seat padding... basically it was factory weight reduction to the extreme. Thing could SCOOT though. Plus I got almost 50mpg. Wish I still had that thing, they are going for a pretty penny these days.

I think that a TDI 914 would be cool, and should be capable of 60 MPG.

I also would love to build an Opel GT with a Toyota DOHC engine.

Someday I WILL do a respectable TDI into 914 conversion.

Statistics etc, Diesel is taxed HIGHER then petrol but the overall % of Diesel cars is higher then you may think, coupled with the fact that resale prices are better of a diesel.

In 2008 44% of all cars sold in the UK were Diesel and in 2009 42%. If you then look into the breakdown across segments the results are even more eye-opening.

Upper medium class 3-series, Audi A4 etc Diesel sales are 70.6%
Executive class 5-series Audi A6 Diesel sales are 77.8%
Luxury class S-class, Audi A8 etc Diesel sales are 54%
MPV class 59%
4x4 SUV class 82.6%


Since it makes little sense to have a small diesel car since by nature thay are runabouts etc Diesel is the way to go. As far as comments about accidents of small cars vs large cars it is not as cut and dried as people make out. It is all in the design and engineering, many large Chineese cars have abysmal accident results, in this case size does not matter.

If ppl want to drive huge cars etc which have crap economy then fine, their choice, however I object to the eco-Nazis telling me that electric is the answer it is not.

The Toyota Pious (not a spelling error) is outdriven, out handled, out economised by a VW Polo Bluemotion, and that is before you have to factor in the cost of disposing of the batteries.

So what do I drive? A Passat 170 TDI, the other half a petrol Tiguan 1.4TSI.
If I had the space i would have and drive a 1958 Plymouth Fury or a huge finned Caddy from 1959.

R

I could get 37 mpg in my RSX if I drove slower. I have a co-worker who has the exact same car, and she reports that she gets 37 mpg if she keeps it at 65 mph or below.

Not gonna happen.

That was true in 1950 ...

This is the concept of the future. http://www.loremo.com/englisch/index.htm
They expect to sell cars next year...
four seats. It will be available with Diesel or Electric engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqkl1Ve_T8c


This one is also a great concept ... but only two seats and only electric
http://www.aptera.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_JV6QUIu5s

One of my friends (who drives an RSX Type S) goes nuts for the Aptera. He wants one in the worst way.

Nice thesis there Dave.... thanks.

With the open throttle, I swear I got the best mileage out of my 993 in 6th doing 90-110 for long lengths of time... ie 280 between Cupertino and SF. I'm sure the lack of drag helped too...

That's true but Diesel is also more efficient. A diesel car will have 20% to 30% better mpg. If gasoline and diesel are taxed the same, the only reason people buy more gas cars is beacause they are cheaper.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/con...fe_stand_1.html

One of the reasons that diesel cars aren't all that popular in the US is that diesel fuel costs more than regular unleaded. I did the math a few years ago and I couldn't make the VW diesels work for me, economically speaking. So I ended up with an old Toyota and then a used Acura.

My 2003 1.8T Passat got 35-40 mpg without problem if you drove normal or freeway driving. Great car, quiet, roomy, airbags and would cruise at 100mph all day and still get 35mpg with the AC on.
Sold it to a friend...
The euro in-laws say they buy diesel cuz they are cheaper to operate/maintain. Lots of Audi A3 1.4's, 1.9TDI's, VW TDI's in the extended family and you can harely tell they are diesels, very quiet.

Hey Geoff...good to see you!

Interesting about the diesels in the UK. And I did not mean to imply that taxes were the only reason to go diesel in Europe; I thought the fuel economy benefits were obvious.

Ken, diesel is cheaper than supreme unleaded gasoline in some areas of the US. But unless the diesel fuel is 20%-30% higher cost than the gasoline, the dollars-per-mile still favors diesel due to the superior economy.


I, too, tire of the electric car hype. It is not the answer--it is an answer, but there is no one answer. Ditto the hybrids; they have their place but they are not the be-all-end-all.

The alternative-fuel and high-MPG worlds are pretty interesting places when you look around...

--DD

Dave thanks for your contribution
I am of the mind that if one can build and maintain a 914
one could take that skill set and build a high mpg car, not just a 40 mpg commuter( my 79 rabbit can do that)
but 80-100+ mpg with a common combustion motor, common parts, common tools, and even maintain a factor of saftey, with acceleration and speed for common traffic.
....and possibly carry two people...

Dave, I don't doubt that. But when I took the purchase price of the vehicle into account, also considering how long I keep my cars (with very low residual value due to high mileage), all that factored into my calculations. It's the same kind of analysis that caused me to decide that a hybrid would not be a good choice for me.

I'm not saying that a diesel wouldn't make sense for other people... I couldn't make the numbers work for me.

I think the route i would go in a build up of this nature would be
250 cc with gearbox( not sure which brand but it would mostly be dictated by gear box)
light weight large dia motor cycle wheels
tube frame chassis built with saftey in mind
aluminum or glass skin
redesigned atv suspension
two alum seats
five point harness
helmets
the thing i have not figured is the drive wheels

i am still wondering what could be done to a 1.7 to make a 914 get 50 mpg...
or would i have to put a tdi in???
any thoughts

There was a thread about that where Jake explained how he can build super eco type 4. Not cheap ...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=82761

...

It would not be too hard, but would cost a little money, and may not be "sporty" to drive any more. It might also overheat, due to lack of airflow from keeping engine revs low.

You would need:
Modern FI
Tall transmission gearing
Electric cooling fans
A more slippery body kit

Goal would be to have the engine turning under 2000 RPM at freeway speeds, and not have to drive it faster then 65mph.

On a water cooled engine it is easier. You shift from 1-3-5 skipping 2 and 4, and moving to higher gears as soon as you can to keep engine revs low. Nothing is done fast. Cruise some of the hypermiling websites for more ideas (and lots of home built aero bodies.

Zach