Alright I got my first look at a complete LS1 Engine sitting on the floor and not in a car. I measure it for length and hieght. The numbers i came up with are:

Height from bottom of oil pan to top of motor 24.5-25 inches
Length from back of head to front of water pump pulley 27.5-28.0

Supposedly the LS1-LS6 wieghs 497 lbs fully dressed. What does the standard 914 V8 small blocked weigh fully dressed? (With all of the Conversion parts)

These engines are not cheap right now. I am hearing about 4000 for the complete engine, tranny, computer, and harness. You can sell the tranny for 800-1500 dollars so that may help ease the pain. I would like to try and mooch the motor off my buddy and see what will need to be clearenced to fit it in a 914. I have a feeling that the fire wall will need to be cut to clear the water pump pulley.


Any other thoughts on this?

The only way the engine will fit is by using a serpentine belt to drive the alternator and remote water pump. The water pump is moved to the left side and down to provide clearence. Go to www.renegade.com and check out their system. It seems to be the choice for V8 conversions. Even with this system, it's still a tight fit.

RHS doesnt have a kit for the LS1/LS6 engines.

Brett,

get me pics. I cant help you if I cant see it. I need to see exactly how the new engines handle water flow through the engine.


B

working on them now. Going to try and do a test fit in a couple of weeks.

They say it can't be done!!

I think Toy-jet is using some kind of Industrial electric water pumps. I'm going to use one of the new Meziere remote mount belt driven pumps. These are great with a output of 100GPM and a very high static pressure. The pump is 4" in diameter and comes with AN fittings for the input and output.

Looks like a big improvement over the early style Mopar pumps.

I just sold a 944 turbo and the money is burning a hole in my pocket. I'll get the Ls1 this week at the Charolette auto fair.

Bob,

Can you use the remote mechanical pump (Renegade style) on the LS6 in a 914?

John

Yes I think it would mount on the block OKwith a different mount.

John you are off on Friday would you like to go to the autofair

Bob

Here's a tidbit I saw not long ago to add to this thread:

I have seen this issue pop up on this forum from time to time well,

I finally got an answer to this myth.

I took the time today to take my 1980 911 3.0 SC engine and 2000 GM LS1 Corvette engine to the scales to weigh them and this is what I found out:

My fully dressed 1980 3.0 Porsche engine ready to install weighed 472 lbs. Factor in the weight of the oil in the 10 quart oil tank needed to support the 3.0 engine, then your engine plus oil tank weight jumps up to 490. 5 lbs. at the rear of thevehicle.

(One gallon of oil is 7.4 lbs. Ten quarts is 2.5 gallons, 2.5 x 7.4 = 18.5lbs.)

My fully dressed 2000 LS1 Corvette engine ready to install with the engine computer and wire harness, complete exhaust system, engine mounting brackets, AC compressor, alternator, custom water pump adapter, transmission adapter plate and flywheel weighed 434 lbs. This is a rear vehicle weight savings of 56 lbs. over the Porsche 3.0 engine.

I did not weigh the above engines with the transaxle or clutch assembly bolted to either engine. These parts would be used for both installations and their weights would obviously cancel.

Just wanted to share this information with you guys.

ToyJet

Brad here's a picture The water goes to the block first and then to the heads. Just like a good old SBC. But I do think it comes out of the block and back thru the pump someway and then to the heads. The harmonic dampener can be replaced with a short 6 inch ATI with a serpintine pulley.

Truck block but the same as a LS1 as far as the water pump. It looks like the round ports are the output and the others are the input.
Easy to figure out with a real engine.


Love this internet STUFF

Brett you might want to look at www.zoops.com and www.alangrovecomponents.com
I found them in the new Rod and Custon magazine.
Keep us all posted on the fianl outcome.
CCLINH20MOUNTING

I am seriously thinking I can just take the factory fire wall and cut the big bump in the midle and make an extension push it out a little further and just bolt the whole engine in place. Won't know for sure until I do a little mock up. I realize that for the sake of marketing and such most people don't like to cut a chassis up. It is just easier to say "bolts right in" and sell a the accesorries to make it work. I have a feeling that GM put a hell of a lot more engineering into the design of the optimal water pump and balancer design than has gone into the current crop of conversion parts. I am not knocking the guys at Renegade or RSH, I just don't want to use parts that I (in mind own little mind) don't feel are adequate.

The picture of the front of the motor does not show that huge big ass water pump pulley. I really am not interested in running any sort of underdrive pulleys. They really dont' make that big of a difference in HP for the trade off in durability. I just wish GM had run the AC off the front pulleyu instead of the rear pulley then I could turn the pulley down.

Tidbit of info from my end regarding weights: I installed a aluminum headed SBC into a 76 930 turbo (it is the car featured on the Renegade email site at the top) and the rear of the car raised up over 1 inch from where it was with the stock 930 engine. I totally believe his weight numbers... now if he would just DUMP the massive nasty ass rear wing we might have something.


Thanks for the pics. I see NO reason why we couldnt put this into a 914 with NO hassle. The ToyJet guy has said he has a 914 done but it is not on his site and the links I have seen posted dont work.


B

The more I study the pictures of different conversions I see that the water pump and scuh are not the major problem but the inlet for the intake manifold is the major problem. It comes out the end right above the water pump. I don't think there is much of a way to get around it without a major hack job. I think if there is a centrally mounted TB that could fit on the LS1 we could be set but right now that is the hold up. I really don't want to run a carb and I want to run the LS1 engine as it is the most up-to-date small block. If I can find flanges for the intake I could make my own manifold but that appears to be the major obstacle to overcome.

As I understand it, the throttle body can be put on the front OR the back of the intake on either the LS1 or the LS6. I have a small block conversion 914 that uses an electomotive FI system and have been seriously considering the LS6 for my car.
( Go to sandstallion.com and look at their performance engine section. I know that they are showing a northstar engine, but the LS1 and LS6 can have the intake flipped around the same way.)

I use a cheby short pump that Evans cooling sells and run it with the non-aqueous Evans coolant instead of water. This set-up can idle all day long.

I also use a single crank pulley that goes to an air conditioning compressor on the passenger side (where the fuel pump would mount). The A/C compressor has a double pulley that lines up with the crank pulley on the forward groove and the alternator is mounted on the A/C compressor with a bracket that I made and runs off the back groove of the A/C compressor.

I haven't charged the A/C system yet but the system seems to run fine for charging (electrics) and cooling. I just hope I am getting enough wrap on the crank pulley to run the A/C and alternator together when the A/C is cranking.

Look at the picture of Toy-Jets car the throttle body is on the rear of the engine. Just turn the intake around.

Bob

Sallee advertises the LS1 kit engine at 390lbs complete, though 430lbs is what I always thought as well. Either way, it is a nice light weight package complete with headers, and EFI w/ECM and harness. For the water pump, the Corvette version may be shorter??? I know the dampener and pulley is.

I'm planning on doing the LS1 in my 914, so I read with interest this thread. I notice that the water outlet points straight forward. Is it part of the water pump, or ? There's a hot rod shop up the street that has a crate LS1 I can check out, I suppose. With the water pump removed (using a remote), the water outlets on the block I supect would have to be manifolded together to make their exit eventually to the radiator. A final question, how did you guys deal with the VSS required for the ECM?

Andy

As I understand it, the throttle body can be put on the front OR the back of the intake on either the LS1 or the LS6. I have a small block conversion 914 that uses an electomotive FI system and have been seriously considering the LS6 for my car.
( Go to sandstallion.com and look at their performance engine section. I know that they are showing a northstar engine, but the LS1 and LS6 can have the intake flipped around the same way.)[QUOTE]

If that is the case then I don't see any more problems. Run a thinner single groove pulley and I need to figure out what to do with the water pump. If I can find a shorter pump then I won't have to cut as much of the firewall. I have no plans to run the remote mount water pump. I question the efficency of it.

AS far as the vehicle speed sensor, use one of the aftermarket computer hack programs and tell the computer it doesn't need it.. My buddy that is doing the RX7 conversions doesn't have a speedo because it needs a custom box to convert the electronic signal from the tranny into a mechanical feed

Andy
Jags that Run has a pulse generator in most any Pulses per Revelotion. Not to bad on the prices I think right around $50.00.
I'm going thru all of this on a 928 LT1 (OBDII) conversion now.

I've located a LS6 engine at a FAIR price and plan to pick it up on Thursday. Its got a throllte body with a drive by wire throttle. I'm guessing the only way around this is a new Throttle body from Camaro or firebird. Does anyone know if the new GTO/CTS has a cable throttle or is drive by wire?

All LS1 after 2002 have the LS6 intake so any of the TB should work.

Bob

[quote=Brett W,Mar 30 2004, 01:58 PM] As I understand it, the throttle body can be put on the front OR the back of the intake on either the LS1 or the LS6. I have a small block conversion 914 that uses an electomotive FI system and have been seriously considering the LS6 for my car.
( Go to sandstallion.com and look at their performance engine section. I know that they are showing a northstar engine, but the LS1 and LS6 can have the intake flipped around the same way.)[QUOTE]

If that is the case then I don't see any more problems. Run a thinner single groove pulley and I need to figure out what to do with the water pump. If I can find a shorter pump then I won't have to cut as much of the firewall. I have no plans to run the remote mount water pump. I question the efficency of it.

AS far as the vehicle speed sensor, use one of the aftermarket computer hack programs and tell the computer it doesn't need it.. My buddy that is doing the RX7 conversions doesn't have a speedo because it needs a custom box to convert the electronic signal from the tranny into a mechanical feed [/quote]
Brett,

I think there are many obstacles to overcome with this conversion or companies like Renegade would already have kits available with all the interest in stuffing the LS1 in a 914 or 911. Not to say a DIYer can't do it but to do it right will take some time.

For me, doing it right would mean no breach of engine bay to passenger compartment firewall. From what I see, the remote water pump is the only way to go to achieve this. If the current RH water pump cools a 400-500hp SBC, I see no reason it will not provide enough flow for the LS1.........but again this is unknown territory that will have to be tested by one of us DIYers.

Since computers are not my bag, there are issues with satisfying that department as well.........the fly by wire throttle just to name one.

I believe Bigcat82 is closer to any of us to performing the operation and will have to sit back and see what he comes up with. This won't happen overnight but from what I know of Bob he has the ability and knowledge to get it done right.

Toyjet claims he already has a 914/LS1 conversion complete. I'd like to see some pics. Maybe he is holding out until kits are available but I'd still like to see fuzzy photos if he is listening.

John

Your cracking me up Brett. How much is a comparable vintage Porsche motor with 350+ hp?

I have a LS1 motor sitting here attached to a car, but you guys ain't touchin' it. If you need any specific pictures of it in a C5, lemme kno.

sm

Steve, I'll give you 4 grand for the front clip.

Good luck getting 350+out of a vintage non turbo engine. 911 heads suck.


I realize there will be a lot involved. I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't mind cutting the firewall as long as it is done with skill and cleanly modified. I am guessing I will probably have to add at least 3inches to the bump in the firewall and probably have to make a box on the rear for the air intake to pass through.

The fly by wire throttle is easy. Most of them have a mechanical setup that goes to a "box" under the seat and converts the motion. The Boxsters are done this way.

This is all great info guy's. I wish I had one sitting here.

I honestly dont see anything seriously screwed up with the water setup. It would take two small adapters.

The reason why the aftermarket V8 conversion company's havent done it yet:.. none of them have developed anything new in the last 20 years. Only one is actually moving forward with their current product line and perfecting it. The other is content selling what he has sold for the last 30 years.


B

You are freaking kidding, right? You don't get 210hp out of a NA 2000cc motor with heads that "suck".

-Ben M.

I assumed he was joking. Hemi chamber.... easy to port runners.


B

I could easily be all screwed up here, but I was talking to Clemon at the Hooters gathering in Atlanta a couple weeks ago. I think he's Toy-Jet, right? Anyway, he mentioned that he had just got a '75 914 and was working on it, so I was under the impression that he wasn't done yet. Unless maybe he already has another 914 with the LS1 in it and the '75 is a new project?


Brad mentioned he doesn't like the rear wing on the '80 SC, but I thought the way he incorporated the radiator in the wing looked like pretty nice work. And that leaves the front trunk untouched! I bet it wouldn't look so nice on a 914 though.

The concept of the rear radiator doesn't seem to be a bad one if it cools properly, but IMHO the one they made is U G L Y. Too many Star Trek movies or something. Might help a little to see one that is body colored, but the angles are still too funky for my taste.

To each his own tho...

sm

FYI.

I totally agree with you Steve, that rear spoiler throws all styling right out the window, sure it works, but in order to sell and promote something it has to look "correct", which this one doesn't.....maybeit looks better in person....

the 911 is too "soft" and round for that spoiler, you need a car with very sharp edges in order for it to feel right...........

I talked with Clemon at Hooters as well and he said he had already installed a LS1 or LS6 into a 914. He also showed me the ebay ad of the auction he won for a 914.

In another conversation we had, he mentioned that the 914 purchased through ebay was his first 914.

John

He had some pics on his site some time ago but seems like he took them off.
I believe he is developing some pieces for an LS1. Looks like it's possible though.