I'm shopping for a new used DD for my wife. I'll get behind the wheel occasionally myself, but it will primarily be her ride. I'm looking at several different cars (all German), but one of them is a 2001-ish Audi S4 with the 2.7 turbo motors. I'm curious about the reliability of this particular platform. Anyone have practical experience with this model? Let's keep this on topic please. I don't need to discuss what other cars I should consider, etc... I know what I want and don't want. Just trying to find out if one of the candidates is reliable or has issues of any kind. Every make/model has it's own particular issues, some are worth dealing with, some aren't. You get the idea...

Jcd914 (Jim Dupree) owns one and a Quattro. Before he veered off into computer stuff he was a mechanic at a Porsche Audi BMW place...

Mike, I've had a 2000 S4 since around 2002. It has been a great car overall, but as the miles pile-on they can get expensive to maintain. I have a GIAC chip in it and it is a torque monster with the added boost.

You will read stories of people with low-mileage blown turbos, blown clutches and so forth but I believe many or most of them are kids who abuse the crap out of the cars. I don't baby mine and am nearly 150K miles, original turbos and clutch.

Well not quite, I own an S4 but is a 1993 S4 w/ 5cyl 20V Turbo engine (Audi's original S4) not the V6 turbo. It is also based on the bigger C platform rather that the B platform the 2001 S4's (and A4's) are built on.

I have worked on and driven a few and they are great driving cars, they are fast and can be reprogrammed to be very fast. I have wanted one for some time.

I have not done any significant work on them but any major work on the engine will be expensive since there is so much crammed into the engine compartment. Replacing turbos is supposed to be a real pain to do and I would believe that.
I have heard of a few oil leak issues with cam covers and chain tensioner gaskets, possibly some ignition coil failures and some turbo failures but nothing about chronic major failures.

My Audi's (I have a 96 A6 as well as the S4) have been rock solid and trouble free until 1 of the coils on the S4 started crapping out under load. I have a few switch and gauge illumination failures and the sunroof on the A6 wigs out once in a while, other than that it is just maintenance.

The biggest concern I would have is the treatment it received from PO's, the S4's are often driven hard and may not have been well care for.

Good Luck
Jim

This is interesting timing..
I brought home a 1999 A4 for my wife to try out as a winter car last Thursday. It isn't a turbo, it is a 6 cylinder auto. This car has a ton of miles on it.. like around 220,000 It runs great and seems rock solid.
I have always heard that this era A4's had Electrical Gremlins and this one seems to be right on in that department. The windows stopped working the day after I gave it to her. Looking at A4 forums, I see that they ask if the windows stopped working during a heavy rain.. Yup.. Supposed to be a relay on the drivers floor that gets wet if the sunroof drains crack. Haven't checked that yet. The alarm and central locking don't work and dash warning lights are on and on and on. Some of these things I can live with considering it is real cheap and I only need it for the winter. She does really like it and if a few things can be fixed, I'll buy it for her. Oh, yeah.. Heated Seats went a LONG way in selling her on the car...

Thanks Chris.


You can tell that from reading some of the ads. I didn't mention that we'd prefer and I'm primarily looking for an avant, so that may limit the kiddie racer PO syndrome... somewhat. I won't buy one that's been jacked with hard. If it's been modified that might be OK if the seller is someone I can read as being reasonably responsible. Thanks for the input.


That won't hurt me either. Going to look at an 01 avant this afternoon that only has 76k on the clock. Looks really clean, but I know all about pictures of cars being deceiving.

Keep'em comin.

The wife drives a 2001 A6 2.7T Quattro with about 85k on it. Same engine as the S4. It's been a pretty drama free experience. My only complaint is turbo lag. I've heard this can be improved significantly with a performance chip but I haven't experienced it first hand. The engine chip costs around $600, and if you're getting the tiptronic transmission, you should get the "tip chip" too (another $600). AWETuning.com sells them.

For longevity, my advice would be to use a high quality synthetic oil to keep those turbos healthy. If one goes out, you have to replace both, and they're not cheap. (I use Castrol Syntec European formula... make sure it's the one made in Germany). Also, be mindful of the bypass valves... if you're not sure about their condition, just replace 'em. Easy to do and will provide peace of mind that the turbos aren't being overstressed.

Watch for leaky cam tensioner seals. When they leak, they'll drip oil onto your catalytic converter, resulting in an obnoxious burning smell with every cold start up.

If your wife's not used to driving a turbo car, you might want to coach her on the do's and don'ts... particulary, don't dog the engine until it's up to operating temp. Also, don't dog it and put it away hot.

Overall, the 2.7T is a great engine. The bottom end is super strong and with proper maintenance, it'll take you a lot of miles.

Also, watch out for failing pixels on the gauge cluster display. To fix it, you have to replace the entire cluster. ~$800 - $1000 if I recall correctly. The screen might work fine in cold weather, but in the heat, the pixels will fail. It's a widespread problem that Audi likes to pretend doesn't exist.

Had my 98 A4 TQM for a while, The KO3 turbo's (on the A4 and the S4) just dont seem to last all that long.. My bearings were still good on mine, BUT the exhaust manifold AND the turbo had a 2" crack through them that I could see light through... It appears it had had a chip for ~ 5 years when I had it..


As for the dead pixels, I have read that a couple of people offer repairs with new/better screens.. www.audizine.com is the biggest.

Front control arms are another issue with Audi's.. They have to be replaced ~ 125k mark.

Driveshaft carrier bearings fail ~ 150k and need to be replaced. HUGE PITA.

Fuel filters are also a PITA but doable.

Keep the electronics out of the weather (keep all the factory sealed electronics, factory sealed) and you should be OK with that..

ABS modules fail, Can be rebuilt, But causes for some "OH SHIT" braking... AKA ABS kicks in barely tapping the brakes leaving you with NO stopping power. ~ 400

Cruise control modules and cruise control switches fail. Some other switches fail as well but are easily replaced.

Clutches are a PITA.. Not as bad as 944's, not as easy as standard RWD..

Timing belts and water pumps every 75k.

Heated seat electronics fail. At least in the A4 models.


However overall, one HELLOVA car for the money.. These are some of the more major issues I have dealt with..

50k on my A4. 30k w/ ARP stage 3 turbo.

As far as pictures being deceiving.
Here are a couple of pictures of the A4 I just brought home. By looking at the car there is no way you would guess it has over 220,000 miles. I'd be paying around 1300.00 for it and am willing to deal with some issues.. I'll buy 4 winter tires, Working Windows would be good and the check engine light out would be nice. The Alarm and locks, I can live without. As long as it gets an Inspection Sticker, I'm all set with it. and the Wife gets to leave her 911 home in really bad weather. If she REALLY likes it, next year I'll look for one with a lot less miles and send this one on it's way.
Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Why not an A4? That gets rid of the overstuffed engine compartment and the expense that goes with it.

The Cap'n

Yep, mine started to go out after a few years and now it is all but illegible. I haven't bothered to fix it because the cost outweighs the annoyance.

Good suggestion..
A A4 quattro Tip with a 2.8 is a VERY nice car.. Hell for the price you would spend on a S4, you could get a B6 3.0 Tip.. I know the 2.8 V6's go for WELL over 200k miles with just standard maintenance.

I was one of the lead US Test Drivers when they were developing the 2.7, then the V-8. I beat the snot out of them before I got put on the Beetle project where they called me the Bug Killer.

The problem is like most modern VW products, they start nickel & diming you @ about 85,000 miles, except Audi parts are more expensive.

As I remember to do the Timing Belts/Water Pump you really have to take the front bumper cover off, remove the radiator, etc to get where you need to work.

Always thought the S-4 Avant was a cool looking car

have a 2005 S4 with the 4.2l V8....wicked fast! I love this car, extremely dependable. I'd buy another one in a heartbeat.

I would really prefer an avant. One of the best looking wagons around IMO. And they look better than the sedans.


Various reasons. I've heard the 1.8t has some kind of oil sludge issues? KNow anything about that John? I haven't looked into the A4 much because I'd prefer the larger 6 in this particular car. I wouldn't mind an A4 with the 2.8, but it might be just a tad underpowered for my tastes too. I need to drive one to really evaluate it. And I haven't yet. I will though before it's all said and done.

The car S4 Avant w/6spd I drove today was a nice car. Had the display pixel issue, somethings worn in the front end (slight vib at highway speeds), but otherwise was in fantastic condition. 76k miles and he's asking $13,250. All the money basically. Not that I'd pay that. Since this is primarily for my wife I'd prefer an auto though. So if I'm going to pay all the money the manual probably isn't the right car. She can drive a stick, but... I'd be happier if she was using an auto.

And just an FYI or reminder, we live in the Rockies. Turbos and blowers really help compensate for altitude when you're bombing from home at 5k up to 10k+ in altitude. I'll happily give up a little mileage for some balls.

The front suspension does need attention when the bushings and tie-rod ends get worn - the car will feel like it doesn't want to go straight, and you can get weird tire wear (which hurts extra with >$200 tires).

Gratuitous pic of my S4 -


2000 Audi S4 by cjcam, on Flickr

Put me in the "not a fan" catagory, I've had this discussion many times over with Greg...

Don't get me wrong, I love concept of the A4 or even S4 on paper, drove one and came away a little dissapointed, (mainly steering and road feel) then started talking to owners whose entire dash went out, head on the 2.7 bi-turbo needed replacing at 70k, and what it takes $ wise to run one and I said no thanks.

Problem is in the sub 10k awd fun to drive catagory, not much available, so I understand the appeal.

You like Miatas.............. nuff said

Gint, will this be your car or hers? Honestly, for a reliable get in and drive (Especially in that weather) I would opt for a non turbo.. Oh and the S4 avants are RARE... A4's are much more common, you can easily pick up a VERY nice avant quattro auto for 7k in either a 1.8t or 2.8 vairent.

Couple of examples.
http://www.audizine.com/classifieds/showpr...mods&cat=64

http://www.audizine.com/classifieds/showpr...iles&cat=64


the 1.8t's have oil sludge issues... But only if they havent been kept up with regular oil changes.. I have 175k on my 1.8t, and my problem now is turbo related.. Oil pickup is fine.

To be perfectly honest, the 2.8 tiptronic quattro wagons are a bit of a dog.. But they DO have a good deal of torque..

Most has been covered, but I would add:

Rear strut springs like to break.

Catalytic converter flex pipes will leak at some point.(bosel makes a good flex replacement, if you can weld.)

V/C gaskets leak onto exhaust manifolds.

Turbos will fail prematurely. Look for ripped J and F tubes.

VSV tubes on top of the intake split.

And finally the usual PITA SRS problems........

Audi says it takes 20 hours to change turbos on one and 30 hours to do an engine R and R. They are a royal pain in the ass to work on with the engine in the car. With and APR stage 3+ kit you will make cray power and torque, but you will have to replace turbos, down pipes, exhaust, ECU, intercoolers, charge piping, etc. It will cost money. I have one in the shop right now getting new RS4 turbos, plumbing, clutch, O2 sensors, ECU, sway bars, brakes, diff bushings, etc. He has the pixelated dash, the interior is nice, but the rubber covered panels scratch easily and they look like ass in a hurry if they don't already. The car rides nicely and handles well. be interesting to see how it drives with all the new upgrades, but it is a nightmare to work on.

Audi dropped the 2.7 engine after one production run and went with a V8 because it is less complicated and more reliable. Audi even acknowledges the V8 is more reliable.

I love my tropic green 98 A4 1.8T. Would not trade it for an S4.

Why bother with the 2.7t when you can get 500+whp out of a 1.8T at all 4? Torque, sure, but you will just end up breaking more stuff.

Let's see. 2.7TT:

http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products...s3_93_clean.gif


vs

1.8T

http://www.goapr.com/products/ts3b5a4plus_power_figures.html



The S4 Kills the 1.8T. Sorry.

APR is garbage. Get off shitty Bosch ECU's, get something better than their crappy log manifolds you will make good power.

I would not even think about doing anything with APR or stock Bosch management after my experience with Motronic tuners and their actual ability to get things right or release a decent product.

That S4 stock has a shitty narrow band ECU.

I will take a 1.8t over a 2.7T any day. Easy to work on, makes more than enough power, enough to destroy the drivetrain. Guys do 600+whp in fwd 1.8T cars, 500-600whp in a B5 is easily possible now. I daily drove and still have a 2001 GTi 1.8T that is easily mid 300whp on a log manifold and a tuner mail order tune with the MAF disabled, running EG feedback only. That is at 1 bar of wastegate pressure from a 3071R, on 93. Nothing at all really, stock internals 100%. Been reliable for 2+ years, beating on it.

Super cheap too, with the money you save you can fix all the B5 problems, the shifter, the trans mount the factory left out that gives the car quattro slop, and the entire other host of issues that plague these things.

You can do enough cheaper with a 1.8T. Doing a 2.7T right involves moving to a single turbo with a lot of fab work anyways, and then to standalone because a narrow band bosch ECU is crap.

APR out of the box is WAY conservative.. Im running the non "+" model on my A4 and im hitting those numbers NO problem.

There are plenty of 1.8T guys running well over 500whp on street cars and still getting close to 30mpg. What are the 2.7 guys getting? 22mpg?

But why make this into a pissing match? For the price, the 1.8t makes a great car, But we all know the S4 is a great engine as well.. Just a TON more $$$$

I don't care anything about modding the hell out of this thing. It's going to be the wife's ride anyway. A stock 2.7 turbo or a 2.8 will provide all the power she needs.

Thanks to those that provided constructive input.

Not long ago there was an article that showed VW, Audi and BMW were the least reliable cars sold in 2009 or 2010. Porsche was not on the list.

Edited to not sound like such an ass.

We're talking about 99-2001 model Audis. 09-10 is almost ten years later production.

Ok I bought a new 2004 S/4 Avant as my DD...fantastic car / wagon.
Yes its a sleeper..it hauls! No real problems - other than the window regulator
that 'happens' to go out - even though I seldom use it!!!

I have a Master Porsche Tech that going to take care of that for me.. ya phone in the Audi part..get a discount and have the tech work on it after hours ..so he can fund his 914 projects. ya I would rather pay him to R& R that while I spend time working on my -6..funny but true...in fact that's going to happen tomorrow.

Back to your question... a AS_ Kicking wagon.

OK, figured this one out. While I would love an S4 and don't have much heartache with the possible issues one could have (since I have a fleet of used cars anyway), I have to remember that I'm not shopping for a car for me to drive around every day.

The A4 with the NA 2.8 would be the perfect car for my wife. In that car even the manual would be fine and I could have some fun with it on those occasions when I drive her car. All I have to do now is find a wagon locally with reasonable miles on it.

Thanks all!

Audizine.com
VWVortex.com

http://forums.vwvortex.com/forumdisplay.ph...d-RS4-(B5)-Cars

Made it a tad easier for you to navigate Vortex...

Thanks Andrew. I've been a vortrex member for a long time. But it's such a zoo that I only search there to look for issues.

I need to find one locally. I simply don't have the time to schlep across country to buy a car right now.

I know where you can get a wrecked red sedan with front end damage

I hope he buys the salvage so we have a parts car available!

My big kid has a 2002 2.7T. Big chip. That is some serious grunt.

100k. But we're starting to have a little whine in the turbos. Looks like dad will be pulling the engine and putting in some new turbos and down pipes.
He also has had a couple summers when the interior got real warm. The display between the gauges went a little goofy.

The car is a big heavy pig. But the 350 plus horse power and 400 ft. lbs of torque make it pretty fun to drive. 70 to 120 mph is real nice.

One thing I like about the car is that as long as the turbos are reasonably spooled-up, you can just roll into the throttle at freeway speeds and you're suddenly going 30 or 40mph faster with no drama.

Another fun thing is hammering it in first or second gear in rain or snow, and actually going straight, and forward.

Mine needs to be replaced sooner or later. That will be a tough choice. I thought about an RS6 (V8 biturbo) briefly but it makes the B5 S4 look cheap and simple to work on in comparison.

Chris, Why not step up to a B6/B7 S4? All the power of your B5 without the hastle of the turbo's. Plain and simple, they are awesome cars.

Personally I'd love to get a B6 s4 as a daily.. That v8 is heavenly...



PS I hear you about hammering it in the rain, I love driving mine in the rain!

How is the gas mileage? I know when everything hit $4 gallon around here the V8's were cheap.
Plus the fender flares look cool.

Bout the same as the 2.7T's

They should be ~22-25mpg. Not half bad for an AWD v8..

Really? I might have to look at one of those for myself when I get tired of the GLI.

I had the opportunity to drive a A6 with the 4.2 V8 yesterday but I passed. I'm afraid I might like it too much.

Turbo's are good till 100k on most...figure 2k to replace them...
Figure 3k if you have someone do it for you...and you might want to think about it...they are way underneath and a bitch to get to.

Automatics and Germans dont mix.
Audi tranny is a full replacement part, no service, no fluid change etc etc. they dont last forever.

Elec
Dash pixels go bad...pretty normal issue on these cars, but its not a huge deal.

Best value for the money is the A6 sedan.
The A4 wagon is right behind that, then the A8

The A6, you can get a whole lot of car for the money.
Execs dont want them, kids think they are to heavy.
2.7 turbo is in the A6 also.

An A4 quattro in the snow, with blizzacs, is the best snow car I have ever driven...trucks included. they are tanks.

RIch

I have thought about the V8 RS4. That seems like a sweet car, but I haven't driven one personally. Nor have I driven the regular V8 S4 either, yet.

My long-term average with the 2.7T is 21.5-22mpg in mixed driving (per the trip computer).

Hey Gint, why not a Legacy GT like Dana's?

Because I'm a Subaru fan like you're an Audi fan. And people want stupid money for used ones in Colorado. Always have.

Daaaaammmnn! I love this car. I told my wife if it were silver with black leather she wouldn't get it at all. Like whipped butter at 90. Not that I condone such a thing... ahem... cough... choke. Please excuse the crap-ass low light pic. I'll do better tomorrow when I can get it outside again and get the extra wheels/snows out of the back.

Craigslist ad (the pictures in the ad were all worthless):

1998 Audi A4 Avant Quattro manual sport trim - $6950 (Morrison)
Date: 2010-11-26, 10:06AM MST
Reply to: sale-ajgaw-2080208891@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

FS: 1998 A4 Avant Quattro manual sport trim 95,000 miles


The time has come to part with our beloved ’98 Avant quattro. This model comes with a smooth V6 engine that is extremely reliable, has plenty of power and gets great fuel mileage (23/29). It has a 5 speed transmission and the famous All wheel drive Quattro system. The Audi is very safe with amazing traction and 4 airbags.
- Free and clear title, no lien
- All maintenance records from day 1
- No major issues, she runs perfect and smooth

This car has been cared for like a baby all it’s life. It is beautiful in the pearl white paint. I am certain you will be very impressed with this car. Interior is immaculate. The exterior is like-wise in great shape with only minor issues consistent with a used car. It is also a pre-facelift model meaning that is comes with the highly sought after stubby passenger mirror and euro hatch.

Factory Options:
- Sport trim: 5 spoke wheels, sport suspension, sport steering wheel and accents
- All weather package: Heated front seats, heated windshield washer nozzles and heated driver’s door lock
- Audio package: Bose premium sound system and 6-disc CD changer
- Glass sunroof
- Trip computer
- Leather seats
- Wood trimmed interior package


Modifications:
- Audi rs4 wheels with performance all-season tires(not wheels shown in first picture)
- Height adjustable H&R coilovers
- Dieselgeek Panzer skidplate
- Mintex red brake pads all around
- ECS cross-drilled and slotted rotors up front
Recent Maintenance:
- Timing belt and water pump – 51,000 mi.
- Valve cover gaskets - ~ 60,000 mi.
- Rotors and Pads all 4 corners – 68,000 mi.
- BG44k fuel treatment – 70,000 mi.
-Major tune up, incl. filters, spark plugs, etc. 80,000 mi.
-Coolant flushed, filled with Audi original -85,000 mi.
- Tie rod ends - 90,000 mi.
- 4 wheel alignment - 90,000 mi.
- ABS module replaced - 92,000 mi.
- Oil changes with Mobil-1 every 3-4k ALWAYS

Extras included in sale:
- Original sport suspension
- Audi “fab five” wheels in good shape with excellent snow tires
- OEM child restraint system
- Pearl white paint pen

Please call.

MICHAEL 303 7qwe rty

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Nice find! I was skeptical about the pearl white when I first got mine, but it grew on me. It is a pretty rare color, probably more so in the Avant version.

I dig the pearl white. It looks even better with the windows tinted. Not sure how I feel about those rims, but they could grow on me. I know I like the stock 5 spokes you got. .

What color is the interior?

Make sure you don't close the garage door on the rear bumper..........BTDT

Have some fun looking thru this:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.p...thread.../page1