I know there has been talk lately about the lack of availability of bearing.

This could be the end all of our cars. Can't get hard parts, can't fix the aging engines. This is not acceptable.

What is the problem? Don't these engines have the same crank shafts and blocks as VW busses? There is like a billion of those arond the world.

Is there only one maker of these?

Anyone ever thought about approching a manufacturer about producing these?

How about a group buy or forming a sourcing committee to pursue manufacturers other than the one that currently stopped making the bearings?

There bearings people not plutonium.

We're talking about Type IV main bearings I assume?

According to the High Priest of Birdland .... bearings will be available in January ....

Yes, Sorry I'll change the title. Ron, can you expand on that? What do you know about sources and why they dried up in the first place?

All this is likely in several threads, just trying to get it all in one place.

To late Rick ... the King has already posted his cornering of the market.

My source is Glenn Sager of Pelican Parts. We had the discussion yesterday.

Why they dried up?.... they just didn't get made as far as I can surmise maybe due to low market demand. Remember, we are just a pimple on the automotive market.

I paid $175 for std mains after I called across the US looking for them. Isn't there already a serious scarcity issue in the 912/356 world?

I think I payed $40 for a set of main and cam bearings from Adrian Audirac at Headflow masters.. Good German bearings..

high Perfromance house redwood city calif still stocks them as of a few weeks ago. that is where mine came from. rich has a selction of several cuts of the main bearings.

rumor has it that these bearings are only made every year or two, and that the bearing factory switches to these low run bearings near the holiday shut down season, so help may arrive soon. the type IV motors probably consum in one year the same number of bearings as a new auto maker needs in a couple days, so our needs are only a fraction ofa percent of the bearing makers yearly output, they wait til th eslow holiday season before they switch to type IV production, they make the run then shut it down again for a while.

And .... We will be doing the normal Sunday Servie at Slits's Asshole Garage and Church of Celestial Polygamy. I will again reference the subject in my sermon from the jackstand. Communion this Sunday will be Moosehead and Burgers.

Ok, thanks for the great info. So this is just a lull in the market? So no need to over pay for bearing sets if you can wait until stocks refill right?

That would be most wise. No one needs another 916.

Great info. In the spirit of trying to keep bearing info in one post, let's change the discussion a little now the supply mystery has been exposed.

I had a guy email me awhile back and ask about getting a line bore. When it comes to line boring a type I or Type IV case is there a bearing that is oversize on the outside diameter as well as smaller on the inside diameter?

How is a type IV block line bored? I know how a standard cast iron V block or inline block is bored. But the upposed block has to be different with the cam bore and the drop in cylinders.

Again, This info is probably in some thread here someplace, just trying to move some of the info to a single thread for easy searching.

This isn't the first time this has happened.. It happened in the mid 90s and again in 2001. It may not be acceptable and it may suck for those not prepared for it, but nothing can be done about it.

Hard to find parts is part of owning a vintage vehicle.


The numbers aren't enough.. When new car manufacturers place orders for a couple hundred thousand bearings, the bearing manufacturers cre nothing about an engine designed over 40 years ago.


Two, primarily.. A company in Mexico called silverline and the Mahle/ Kolbenschmidt company that merged back in 1999.


Absolutely.. But knowing the EXTREME development thats REQUIRED in finding the absolute sizes and materials for the bearings I can see the costs extending well into the 6 figure range. This is not an area where "close is good enough" because improper materials, bearing crush and etc can and will lead to engine failure, then lots of fingers being pointed in a direction that doesn't sound favorable.


I already have a MFR sourced, they have made bearings for me in the past, but the following for these engines is great enough to demand the expense of the development and the risks associated with it.It would take months of experimentation to do this CORRECTLY and thousands of test miles, tear downs and used oil analysis to make an effective product.


They may not be plutonium, but they are a very big part of the critical equations that comprise the engine.

The MFR also have told us a run of bearings will be made in January, I expect these bearings to be like the new Type 1 main main bearings and not have a steel backed center bearing, which would equate to pure junk, sacrifced for ease of manufacturing and cost.

Over time bearing quality has really went downhill. The best thing to do is find a bearing from a modern engine that is still great quality and easy to source and then create an adaptor to fit these to the TIV case. The development associated with this would be great, but at least the bearings would be a proven component and could be purchased with ease at a good cost.

If I was going to put this much time and money into something, I'd outfit the case with a modern bearing and do whats required to make it a proven arrangement. We already know which bearings to use, from which modern engines. I stand ready to attack the problem in January if the bearings are not available as promised, or if they are released and are pure junk. Our first priority are our engine purchasers, so considerations of selling these to the public would be critical. Within my engines I control everything, inside someone else's engine I control nothing and when things break I don't accept finger pointing. Playing the game of "risk" is part of the title "engine builder" for me or anyone else.

Expensive, hard to find bearings are nothing new.. Buy a set for a 356 engine, they have been over 400.00/set for at least a decade.

It doesn't get much more difficult than bearing development, even with the capabilies, tools and the network that we have at our fingertips.

This may be a lull. But if it is, it may be an instance where prices go up like a rocket and come down like a feather.

I expect bearings to come back to market but be held back by the importers at a "just enough" level to keep prices high. These people don't need the bearings and only care about the bottom line.

My projections are:
For a few months prices will stay high and will come back down after 6 months or so. I am willing to bet that the bearing quality is greatly reduced as well.

Jake, Than s for the input here but your comments prompt more questions. If it takes so much R&D to come up with a quality bearing, why do you think the manufacturers would try to re-invent the wheel at the risk of having a sub-standard product? I know the obvious answer, Money. But at the cost of changing a process for a low volume sale?...,, that doesn't make sense. Once a large company invests real cash in tooling and has a know working formula it is likely "THEY" wouldn't change their wigget. But a new upstart may try to build a cheaper mouse trap as witnessed by the chinese parts George posted.

I am very tempted to get my hands on a set of bearings that are in the current market and compare them to the new release. I work with forensic engineers that do things like this all the time.

Because they don't care. These bearings would make up a very small amount of their annual sales, a miniscule amount. If we fell off the face of the planet, they'd never miss us.

As for as comparatives, thats my job. I have bearings on hand from the 60s through present day and know the differences immediately. Anyone under my roof could pick up a non-steel backed center main bearing while wearing a blindfold and could tell the difference.

The comparatives would require the bearings to be installed in cases of a known dimension and then measured under load against a standard bearing of previous manufacture.

We do these things every time bearings change s the align bore sizing must be altered if the bearing measurements are altered.

The longevity of the engine greatly depends on bearing characteristics, sizing and application.

and of course when (or if) Mahle reintroduces them in February like they said that they would, the prices will be much higher. Hold them off the market for a while so the market starves and then reintroduce them at a much higher price. I am just happy that I could buy the sets I bought at any price.

I know I'm in a minority, but I would happily pay $200-$300 for bearings that are continually available and good quality. I hate that I've been turning farther and farther away from the Type4 just because of part availability.

One of my old customers in Nevada was a bearing MFG. They would run lots of the popular bearings all year, and would wait till stock was almost zero on the non popular bearings before tearing down other set ups and setting up for these "special" runs. I would think the VW bearings would now be specials, and probably more difficult because of all the OD/ID changes from machining cranks and cases.

The fact is the current producers have ZERO mandates for a TIV bearing from an engine manufacturer.. What does this mean? They can make them to whtever specifications they want from whatever material compositions and they'll still sell.

Thats why I feel the ultimate solution is to use a modern bearing. Nothing I'd like to do better than tell these batards to kiss our asses, because they don't give a damn about us..

Instead of conforming to what we are supplied, I'd rather make use of something else thats more superior anyway. Here we saw this coming, stopped sales immediately and have enough to last us a while.

Remember: Lots of Type 1 race engines use TIV bearing sets. I am SURE that someone from that part of the industry will have bearings made in some 3rd world country and they'll have zero development work before being sold to the unsuspecting consumers... Thats what that crowd does.

Mark, Guys like you and I are in the minority, not enough people respect quality enough to spend the required amount for a proper bearing, or proper materials and thats why this following is commiting suicide on a daily basis.

jake:

what are teh differences between a modern bearing and the standard type IV stock bearings?

Dave, I think the point is modern bearings vs. crappy reproductions of stock.

Not modern vs. stock. Stock is the obvious choice there...

Think before we discuss what bearing are being transformed into I'm wondering if there is any difference in the Silverline - Mexico bearings and the Mahle/ Kolbenschmidt company bearing that I guess are currently available.

I checked my parts stash in my garage and found a set of Mahls that are .25 and a set of Kolbenschmidt that are standard. Are these the same for all engine size or are they specific for a 1.7, etc.?

Rick,
Yes there is a difference in those bearings. The Silverline bearings are "less than acceptable". I'd rather reuse old bearings as use Silverline bearings..

BTW- "Stock" no longer exists with any othe oparts bought today for these engines.

All Type 4 engines from the beginning of production, through the very last unit built use the same main bearings, no matter the size of the engine.

I've tried several sets of silverline's on type one engines....each and every set ended up in the trash bin.

From rods that would stick to cranks that just didn't feel smooth. Garbage.

I just ordered 2 sets of Koblenschmidt main bearings this morning. I am now interested in what shows up.

I looked at both sets to see how they differ. The Mahles are better made and have more weight to the set. They feel more solid built.

Mahle owns Bolbenschmidt and has since 1999.

I bet your KS bearings come in a package that say "Made in Brazil, repackaged in Germany"

Jake:

what makes the differeance in quality of the old original style bearings and the reproduction ones? What difference are there between the new modern bearings and the original type? could it be material differances? design? tolerances that are different?