I feel it is a good idea. I agree with most that it is the intent to deceive, or not disclose, that is the problem. With my last car I found the old receipts for inner long replacement that the current owner had no idea about. I disclosed and sold the car with all the receipts I had found from previous owners. The buyer ended up rebuilding the engine because his mechanic said it needed it. My mechanic never mentioned any issues and I am no master mechanic and fully disclosed what I knew. The buyer was still happy with me and the car, he explained that he trusted my pre-sale comments and knowledge (lack of:).

Really simple, they're afraid the list is going to be a witchhunt and their car will be burned.

As stated, this list would be for KNOWN falsifications with the intent to defraud ... not just any car that has been repaired.

Jeeezuus ... get over yourselves people.

I found out my red car is actually a fiat X1/9 that was rebadged as a 914. Is that a problem?

Depends on whether you like Bratwurst or Italian weenies.

Wait, I am German and Italian, but not

Now I am confused.

I'm Mexican.Jew

I'm a Caucasian Mexican from California.

nice....a.....what is a cauc-asian mean

Those are the guys that go to Thailand to meet little boys...

it's somebody from caucasia

Brothers

How can a caucasian have his car listed on a "Black" list? would obamas limo be on a black list, or maybe a half black list???? this brings on so many contridictions.

I have a bald friend who when filling out paper work lists his hair color as caucasian.

I want to do that!

and if he gets a sun burn from wearing no hat, he can run a casino on the reservation.

back on topic...

Could we tie our VINS to our build threads somehow?

Why don't you just name names and identify the cars in question?

Otherwise it just appears to be a witchhunt.

We should all wear masks...........

Joe has his own board??? I want to check it out! What is it? www.BBQ.com? www.420.com? www.neverland.com? www.cassadoresForEverone.com? wwwJoeHasHelpedMorePeopleWith914sThanAnyoneElse.com? www.JoesNewMotorHomeIsPhat.com?

This is all so rediculous. Joe's intent was to just have it so we can have some notes tied to vin #'s. This was just so we as 914 owners or future 914 owners could look it up. Very much like the car fax as mentioned by someone earlier. Yes we have the vin registry which gives us options to put that in. I believe Andy has it covered in that regard & we are in good shape.

The problem here is typical lately. It turns into a bash fest & things get portrayed differently than intended. I personally am sick of this . I have cut down coming on & posting because of this. Not completely but quite a bit. Do people not realize this drives people away . I have had multiple members tell me they are done with the site. Not only coming on here but they won't even come to WCR. They are just sick of the stupid drama. Even mentioning 95% of the members are not the problem. Not only that but the 5% that are don't come to WCR's anyway. Still it seems the World is going downhill enough. That people won't even come out to enjoy each others company. Which is what I have loved about our community. When did this become the place to tear people down ? I realize there is still plenty of help being offered to each other. Just completely burnt out on this other

So we just add an informational note to the vin listing. We don't call it anything other than Vin Info. If one note is wrong, one lawyer will shut the site down forever...and we all have to re-register on Club.

Why not set the thing up like Wikipedia, where you can post your own "correction" of the info?? I know Joe and I don't think his intent was to cause a big commotion, I think what he is trying to do is make information available and then one has another bit of the puzzle. Damn few old cars, 914s or not, have all original body parts. Our cars aren't the only ones that rot, and the more rare they become, and the higher the prices go, the more this kind of info will be important....especially to someone who is a "CW" type of personality, and, while I'm not that guy (ask Ferg) I still would rather have the info than not, and make my own decision. More information is a good thing in almost all cases. And, I doubt that it would be "actionable."

so if a car is cliped and gets a new panel off another carand that panel does nto contain any serial number (say the passenger side rocker, floor pan, suspension ear, etc...) then the car is not on the black list. if however the car gets a secitoned rear trunk floor pan from a donor car, and that section contains some other serial number (the trunk floor contains a factory serail numbner stamp) then the car is black listed? what about folks that replace the door sticker cuase it was damaged at one time or painted over? I have made up ones with new serial numbers stamped as origianl (the dies were a pain to produce!). would this black list a car?

should i mention one car that got a new front clip and had the origianl serial numbers welded into the replacemen front clips car also< how will that one list???

seems that this list could only serve to devalue some folks cars. folks that really car about serial numbers and authitisity would well scrutinize a car be fore buying any how. reminds me of the insurance practice to total rebuildable cars , and branding them with a salvage title forever. stinks to high hevan.

maybe just call this list the scarlet letter list. maybe we can test teh potentially listed cars before listing them, throw them in a lake, and if they sink, there ok, if they float, then will know there fake cause only real cars sink, fake ones float, flaoting cars need to be burnt, their fake.

I think Black list was in general the wrong term. While the idea itself is sound. There are plenty of repairs done to our old cars. No problem with a 914 that is 2 put together. I like Joe think that is something a potential buyer should know. That is the only reason he started this thread. If the repair is topnotch that is great. I think it's just trying to keep someone from getting hosed on a misrepresented car. Not much reason to get upset about that

Disclosure is only harmful to someone who has something to hide.

100%

ok, nice idea to identify someone that is selling a car that is mis-represetned, that is a good cuase to lead. But should not the 'black list" list the name and address of the seller that is MIS-Representing the car, rather than black list a cars VIN????

say some one has a car for sale and they are misrepresenting it, many folks looked at it before he sells it, one of the lookers took notes and reported it as a black listed becuase the VINs did not jive and the seller was Mistrepresenting it as not ever been repaired, Yet this hypothetical car had been sectioned at one time, an the seller kept lying even though he was the one that sectioned it!

Unfortunatley someone buys the 914, having not seen the 914 black list, failing to look him self, failing to obtain a prepurchase inspection, or maybe he sees it but dont care about it being sectioned, so he buys it. Maybe some time much later the new owner discovers the car he bought it is a sectioned car. nicely done, maybe , maybe not, but at anyrate he now owns it and it is a sectioned car, and he knows it. But he maintains it well and it looks good, runs good. should that car STILL be black listed?


What if said owner now decided to sell the car, he is upfront to the best of his knowledge, and tells all prospective buyers that the car was sectioned at one time. Should it be fair that this guys car is still "black listed" placed on someones questionable list that exists for the purpose of listing misrepresented cars????

the list should only be a warning if a car is fruaduantly up for current sale, A warning for one that is misrepresented, but the warning should not follow the life of the car.

Anyone can misrepresent a car, a car cant misrepresent itself. A car, it is an inatimate object, like the saying guns dont kill people, people kill people.

if i owned a sectioned car, One I have never tried to missrepresent as anything better. To have my cars VIN appear on someones public "black list". this would be very unfair.


Tell me do we keep a public list of stolen cars too? do we keep a car on the stolen list even after it is recoved to the rightfull owner?? do we keep it listed forever as stolen????


Frankly we have a good reporting system now for misrepresented cars. folks on this site reguularly post about bad deals, cars that they looked at that are not represented right,s o as to warn others to not waste there time looking. we already have a contemporanous list via the garage page, warnings of qesutionable ebay sales, craiglist ads etc... for both cars and parts.


condem dishonest sellers, not innocent 914's to your list.






remember if it floats, burn it. it much be a witch .

Why?

If the VIN entry for the car (or even better yet, for both cars used to make one) would read:

"This car has been stitched together using two halves, the front clip has VIN 474.xxx and the rear half has VIN 914.xxx"

How would that piece of info be "unfair" to you? Wouldn't that be exactly the same info that you as a owner would convey to a potential buyer anyways?


The possible "devalue" is not because 914world lists your cars as "stitched", the possible devalue comes from the *fact* that your car was stitched together!
914world did not devalue your car, YOU did when you grafted half of a /4 car onto the leftovers of a factory /6 ...

i disagree, a "black list for misrepresented cars would not be nice to be on, even if i was not selling my car. so any car that gets a major fix would be listed? or only ones unfortuante enough to be repaired in the couple areas that have serials numbers?

why list the nicely sectioned rust free car on a black list, just becuase the VIN was involved, in the section repaired, yet a rust bucket thatwas repaired in areas that do not include a VIN stamp would not be listed?

now your like in the salavge title assignment bussiness. Some folks dont want that on there car. yes you have a duty to disclose frudulent sellers as a warning, but you have a nanny noisey attitude when cars not being misrepresented appear on a list for misrepresented cars.
It is know ones damn bussiness if my car or your car is repaired. the stigma of being one time black listed is a determent to potential buyers some may not even look at the car if it is on this list, but if they did look, and the seller faithfully represents the car, why put the car on a black list, turning of potential leads in selling the car, thismaybe they might see a good deal, dispite the repair, often minds are made up when they can see the car, the black list loweres the pool of potential buyers, which lowers demand, and thus would reduce price. if the seller is honest about it, why turn of potential lookers, why give the car a bad rap thus depriving the seller of a pool of buyers that he is fully honest witdh disclose with???


To be fair, why taret only VIN related repairs?????

if you justify markign a car for life for a VIn related repair, why not be fair and list ALL cars repaired, oh yeah that one has a replacement battery tray, lets list it, just in case the owner ever sells the car and may not disclose it???? new floor pan, mark it as an altered car, put it on the list too???
Frankly it would be a much shorter list if we listed known prestine mint cars!!!! All others be damns, god will sort them out

BAD IDEA to traget VIN related ligitimant repairs, yet ignore other types of major repairs, this will certainly mark these cars and reduce there value. kind of like the insurance company marking a car as salvage not becuase it cannnot be correctly fix, simply becuase they devalue it and say it is not economiclal to fix, so it is marked as salvage, very bad practice. i fought hard to prevent some of my nicely repaired cars from being marked as salvage by insurance, it is not a nice thing to be listed. Its a nanny state mentality to come up with this kind of scarlet letter list. yes to a current fruad list, no to a misrepresented car list.

cars dont lie, people do, maybe we can see if the seller floats???? if he sinks, he's honest, if he floats, burn him, he's a liar!!!!!!

It's a fire bell buddy ... have about 9 of them on the side of our building. I can't pay for it, but I sure can stick it somewhere ............... don't get funny on me!!!!!

Oops ... supposed to be a PM.

Oh well, it fits anyway.

I never said anything about "misrepresented" ... If you misrepresent a car that's your choice!


I'm interested in letting people know that a particular car was stitched together using two halves.
Or that someone sold a VIN tag on eBay so if there ever is a car with that VIN, people will know.

I'll leave any "misrepresentation" to the owners ...

Fire bell, where there's smoke, there's fire Gumby!!!!! party on Wayne

two halves, what about a quarter, or maybe just a fender, or maybe if the rockers was replaced, Major rust repair can be more altering than a car cut in two and joined.

maybe you can get lists from all body shops of all 914's they did body panel replacements on, and expose them all. then you can have an exposay list of cars that have non-OEM parts, chinese bumpers, American Naugahide, brazilian pistons, chinese pistons. infact since some sellers may misrepresent the pistons quality or even the displacement (He told me it was a 2056cc, but it only has 94 mm pistons found upon disassembly!!!) so lets run a list of cars suspected of having altered parts, maybe we can get a list from engine builders of folks that recieved cheap parts,

we need a huge buracrocy to protect ourselves from ourselves, we need a warning lable on all the 914 stuff we buy,

maybe all the reprioduction folks should have to put clear lables (permanent) on their parts, AA Geogres and mikeys Bumper tops should have idnetifing marks molded in so they are not passed off as OEM, reproduction seals shoudl be molded in white rubber to assure identification, carpet kits must have a specail hologram thread woven in them for identification we should require a certified build list on every motor and gear box, it can be an ISO 9000 process, just to protect ourselfs from the unknown.

This thread has been pretty well shredded, but what the hell...

I see possible problems for anyone who wants to publish a statement like: "this car is a bastard assembly of spare parts from various wrecks". If someone loses a sale because of it, there may be blood.

Here's the deal: technically, "libel" is the intentional publication of knowingly false information that harms another". So far, so good. However, lawyers (yes I am one) will make claims and you still have to defend yourself against BS claims. Even if you win, you end up spending a lot of dough on the defense. So the technical requirements of the law are not the whole story.

In the courthouse, this is not "justice", it is "just us".

The VIN registry is a good idea, and should not be a problem if it merely says something like Andy suggested, that such and such a VIN plate was listed for sale on evilBay, or whatever. Stay away from expressions of opinion, no matter how well qualified. Stick to the facts and realize that what one man considers a fraudulent collection of parts, someone else may consider a rescued treasure.

Choose words wisely, grasshopper.

No

I just wish that posters would learn how to spell and read with understanding. Seems to be a hell of lack of the above here.

I had a 1962 Baja Bug that I swapped pans with a 1969. I had clear title to both cars. I put the 69 body on the 62 pan to make it a roller and gave it away with the 69 title. I kept the 62 title for the Baja. VW VINs are on the pan and on the body. So the question is... Which car was which year? I kept the 62 body as a 62 only due to the windshield VIN tag and the trouble to swap it.

Yawn.

Do the right thing and you will have no worries. Peace

You been ripped off, there was no windshield VIN tag in 1962 on a VW!!!

I was drinking a coke the other day, but I only finished half of it, my wife had a diet coke and she too only drank half of it, if we mix the remaining drinks together, what can should we put it in? and what would we call it?

We must all Name Names......