I know we have all heard about them. A car from here in Ca. when someone would put the ID from a rusty car on a car that needed to be smogged. To circumvent the DMV. Or even worse a totaled -6 that got a new tub from a -4 and the numbers welded in. Or the front from one car welded to the rear of another. I can understand if the car was totaled and the owner bought it back from them and had to put a Salvage DMV tag on it. But it should be sold as a Salvaged car.
When talking about this this morning to my Team mates I learned of 2 sets of numbers for -6's that had been cut up. I also know of someone that post here that has tried to sell numbers and documents for cars. I also know a person that has re tagged a car and sold it to a member here that was very unhappy with the seller.
Please understand that this thread is not here to stir up the stuff. If you want to buy numbers for a car then I don't want to hear about it. Here in Ca. that practice is illegal.

I think that is illegal in all 50 states.

It would be great to track the 'suspect' or known-bad VINs in the database here.

The problem lies in the definition of a repair. If I replace a taillight lens, it's clearly a repair. If I weld a fender on, it's a repair. If I weld a new front clip on? Most people would call that a repair. I know of a car that was 2 cars welded together that has had no issues for more than 20 years. Was that a repair?
Clearly or maybe not so clearly, welding numbers on to a new chassis ceases to be a repair, but what about Seinfeld's "1st 911" that was allegedly re-bodied at the Porsche factory. Is that a repair? One part was replaced at the Porsche factory, the chassis.
I met Mr Ruf here in San Luis Obispo. He has a very early 911 that he restored. He will admit to anyone that he had to cut 3 cars completely apart to harvest enough parts to rebuild his car. At what percentage does that car cease to be it's self? I couldn't tell you, I don't know.
The only thing that I know for sure is that if you change numbers with the intent to deceive, it is wrong.
I think we need to make sure that we're doing the right thing.
One last question. If I weld 75% new metal into a car how does that differ, assuming that the quality is there in both instances, from welding 75% used metal into a car.

There are many registries in the old car hobby that do exactly this to ensure the integrity of collectible cars. Solid documentation certainly gives buyers peace of mind and once a car is documented in a registry it's lineage is much easier to trace. I once bought the first production Mercury Cougar and there were difficulties in locating the correct numbers. I had to take a risk it was as presented. Fortunately it turned out to be correct, but documented provenance would have made laying out a big chunk of cash much easier.

My '70 /6 has a /4 front clip welded on. When I saw the ad in Panorama, it stated that the front clip had been replaced. I called the PO and he stated that a /4 front clip had been welded on and it was that way when he bought it in the very early eighties. I went to see the car, saw the weld, saw the /4 serial no. in the front trunk and /6 nos. everywhere else. Got a discount for that and bought it on the spot. The Marlyland title does not state "salvage" or any other "note" concerning the car. The title serial no. is the /6 no.. Likewise, when asked about the car, I will state what I know about the car. For me, it is what it is with no misrepresentations. I never plan to sell the car, but if I ever do, I will tell all I know ..... assuming my mental faculties are still intact .

I knew this was a bad idea. One of the culprits has already posted on it. I can't bring myself to read posts from that person.
The question is.
Should we create a Black list? Keep it on Topic please.

Great example. The key element is, obviously, full disclosure. The creation of a list highlighting cars with similar situations would maintain the legitimacy of the car's lineage. The major benefit occurs when a compromised car has changed hands a couple of times and stories get changed or omitted.

I have been using the VIN database to add warnings about cars where i know for a fact they are mis-represented.

Thank you Andy. I get you the numbers from the 2 -6's that I heard of so you can add them.

I haven't really played with the VIN database yet. Now Andy has me curious.

I think a 'black list' with details could be a good idea. Sort of like a more localized carfax partaining to just our interests here.

to answer your question, No., We should not create any such list. Entering cars on that list woudl require a judgement call as to what had been done to it and whether it had been properly done. If you are wrong, you would be liable for any loss the seller incurred inclusing the diminished value of the car upon sale.

You want that responsibility?

Anyone buying a 35-40 year old car needs to do their own due diligence. No list can save an idiot.

Agreed.Well said.

This is purely subjective and could lead to mistakes. Clearly when you see the guy on Ebay selling just VIN tags, that could be entered. If you are party to the fraud and would like to confess, perhaps you could post the VIN. Any other suspect car would take a committtee of experts to confer before a VIN fraud decision should be made.

And that's a quote!

I heard about some guy that's actually welding two cars together!??!? What do we do about that?

Put him on the rack, drag him thru the streets behind the two piece car, hang him by his nutzz, and turn him into the D "Gestapo"MV.

"Yes" for a vehicle where there is absolutely no doubt / concrete evidence that it has been falsified.

Gee, isn't the "Limo" two cars welded together? I have a friend that totaled a 914 some 30+ years ago. The body shop cut the front half off and replaced it, was considered a repair. Does that now make it a bastard car?

It's already documented in the VIN database ... The VIN numbers of both parts of the Limo have been marked as such since even before we started to cut the cars ...

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, you'll need to look somewhere else for your weekly fix ...

You are completely missing the point ...


I personally know one member who bough a factory /6 that was represented and sold as such and he paid top dollars for the car.

Only to find out several years later that the car had been stitched together and the front half from the firewall forward was indeed from a early /4 car.

This is not about if or when or who can stitch two cars together.
This is about people selling those cars as "original" without disclosing the facts.


Another case in point, when i was selling my factory /6 shell, one member approached me wanting to buy all the tags and title so he could, quote:

"Switch numbers on my early /4 so i can sell it for more money"


You want to be taken to the cleaners with something like that, fine, go ahead, knock yourself out.

If i see a VIN swap, i will make damn sure people know about it.

I find it hard to imagine anyone who would be so naive as to think that the Limo was original, harder still to imagine Andy or Mark trying to represent it as such...

No bubble to burst, I was just having fun, hence the green text for sarcasm.

Andy is right on the target. The reason it hit home to me is this morning I saw a -6 for sale a Coffee and Cars. There was a sheet of paper under the whipper and on it the first line said something about COA. There was no vin on the windshield and it had a CHP applied DMV number tag on the drivers door jamb. Just this would have stopped me from buying the car. I have a friend that is looking for a nice -6 and I would hate to find out he bought that car. I'm sure someone will buy that car I just don't want it to be any one of my friends or any one here. I was very depressed about my -6 after I had looked deeply in to it. You will probably not pull the front valance before you buy your dream car. Passion usually gets in the way.

Joe,
I want to welcome you back and I have always appreciated your humor.
It has been quite some time since I have seen you post here.
Your decision to create your own board and have that forum to air your feelings was a great idea, and at the time it was alot of fun.
I joined up early and we had some fun times during a difficult and damaging period in our collective history.

I still participate on all the boards...

I personally have had my share of all the crap being thrown at George over the past few weeks and this is just another thread started to do just that...just mud slinging.

I would suggest, with all due respect, that you go have these discussions on the forum you created with that sole purpose in mind.

Dont get mad, just hear this with all respect and all polite behaviour I can demonstrate over the internet...please dont do this here.
It will take the fun out of the site and its just not worth it.

If you know of two /6 cars that you would like to submit to the VIN database and claim they are not real, go for it.

George has the right to submit his opinion and he does not need to once again be dragged through the mud as a result.
A license rebuilder is just that....a licensed rebuilder.
He is governed by the state and monitored to the full extent of the laws of Georgia when he does this type of work. that is good enough for me...its legal in HIS state.

Trust that there are quite a few speedsters on the road that were built with a set of VIN tags hanging in mid air and metal was welded around them.

Rich

Rich thank you for putting it politley. Even I as a newbie saw where this was heading from the first post.

But what if one half is a 76 and the other a 73, Then what should it be the newest year SMOG or the earlier non SMOG? hypothetically speaking

Did you see the christies auction about the audi chassis 19 or 21 millions at stake.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/28/update-...pe-from-auctio/

I dont see a problem with a list of questional VIN's , But some body might love it anyway.
my 0094 six is a crashed race car and a -4 914 amalgam. Put it on a list , as a two piece

Doesnt Ca and WA state revins stolen cars and euro imports ?

I had a 84 euro turbo and it was imported 1 year from new ,well 20 yrs later I bought it, clean florida title , WA state tried to revin it because of grey market, on my way home they called and said they made a mistake and gave me the 930 vin on the title , but would not reattach the pillar tag they removed. Crazy

I vote no unless it's proven beyond a doubt by someone else it's a fraudulent deal.

As said above, classic cars do get welded together and rust buckets die only to live again with someone else front right fender and vin. As long as the info is disclosed and registered properly, no harm no foul. We don't want to be the judge and jury either. I also think it probably does happen to single buyers and sellers not on World. The uninitiated. Can't police everyone.

I have a Raspberry car that was used for a parts car. It had the front clip cut off ahead of the bulk head. The owner did not transfer his vin tag and chassis number back to his car. He kept vin tag and chassis stamp from the Raspberry car.

I have a front clip I got from Chappy off one of his parts cars I will fix the Raspberry car with. It will be a viable repair and one that is legal in the state of MN as the section is ahead of the suspension. Any car cut in half behind the suspension and using another car's body half is considered "Sectioned" and in some cases could be an illegal repair. This compromises the crush zone in the body cage structure. With todays equipment it can be done safely but back in the early days of unit body construction there were very few shops that could even safely weld them. Cars were breaking in half and collapsing in an impact causing death and injury.

I wouldn't call the raspberry car suspect of a vin swap as I really don't have the option of keeping the stock vin tag and chassis stamp in the front replacement nose section. So it will have a missing tag and two different chassis stamps. But everyone will know the story.

I'm sorry tha t you people have interped my intension as you may have . My sole intent was to make sure tha everyone be able to make sure that the car they are looking at is proper. I didn't know that Andy has already taken care of that.
Rich: You need to get to know me better.

I think a black list would be a bad idea.

What kind of proof would be needed for someone to submit it for black list.

I personally think this could end up being a powerful tool for con artists.

I usually stay out of this type of thread, but I think SLITS summed up things very well,,,,,,,who would of thought!!,, and I think its time to put this one to bed..

geez...
Joe has got a great point here
no need to hang him on the World's "cross"
i think i am going to take a break from the nut-so, trigger happy, koo-koo, lynch mob mentality here
bye...

I think that even if one of my /4's were a conglomeration of two VIN's I would want to know it. Regardless if it was an "expert" or some yahoo in his Mom's garage. I think perspective owners have a right to know something like this on the car. Think of it as an online "CarFax".

Hell, I would want to know even if the car I was looking at had been in a fender bender! I would also like to look the car up and see if someone did hellhole repairs, and did it correctly instead of using Bondo.

Good idea Joe!

Would I have to change my screen name to "avoid" being put on the list?

I don't agree. I think this is a serious topic that will become even more relevant in the future if the predictions of 914 value appreciation are realized.

It's about disclosure. Some cars will have disclosure when a sale is made for the person that preformed the work or sold a chassis that eventually had it's tags swapped. In the state of mn all late model builders have their titles stamped as such forever. The salvage stamp can not be removed. This isn't the case with cars off the grid.

Maybe a second seller being satified the car is a nice car and on outword appearance, presents as well as an unmolested car may be less forthcoming with the cars history. Maybe not intensionally maybe someone offered to purchase a car and made an offer the seller couldn't refuse. But over time these cars, All old cars have a way of being blended into the fold like so many 365's and ferrari's. Some guy's will deceive intensionally. Others will assist in the blending of cars that are not what they are advertised. I think it's fair to document these as we see them. But only the facts we are aware of like the Raspberry car. But there should be a trail back to the work done to preserve our 914's. As to the value this added or decreased, let the buyers decide that. I think that's the point Joe was attempting to make.

I'm guessing the term "black list" has too many negative connotations.

Adding "major accident repair" or "re-body" to VIN info isn't a bad idea IMHO.

Why not just use your actual name?

"914 History Report"

That has a nice ring.

How about 914 CarFuchs?

Since Fuchs means Fox in German (or Austrian)

Its hard to do the right thing, thats why we need the government...

Nevertheless, here are some handy names:

NARPfax
Triple Trunk Alert
Scratch-a-VIN
Excellence Was Welded

In all seriousness, I like that someone out there cares about our cars and US as owners to even bring this up.

It seems like a decent idea to me. Holding the World responsible for mis-information though seems like potentially a stretch (though I guess libel could be called if something wasn't right or cross posted).

I could see benefits to it as well as possible drawbacks. If nothing else, it may prevent someone once or twice removed from a car from getting screwed (either by learning what they're selling or the seller learning previous history).

Seems like a community run Carfax(TM, used without permission )of sorts. If the information is already being posted, that's nice to hear.

I doubt I'll ever buy a 914 (or any vehicle since the last one I was screwed on) strictly for collector's value. But notes involving, say, stolen 914's would be nice to prevent loss.

Then again, there's always that big brother feeling some people get. {shrugs}

...so call it a full disclosure list. this avoids the need to establish intent

Another thing to consider is individual state laws. In some states a "re-body" is illegal.

The biggest issue to me is after a car changes hands a few times. As long as everyone is upfront and forthcoming with major accident repairs, no problemo. It's when subsequent owners fail to disclose important details.

There are those, of note and otherwise, that view selling these cars as a game of sorts. If you are trusting the wrong person, it's possible to get burned. Just cause a guy of some notoriety (who knows better) puts an inflated price on a car, doesn't mean it's worth it.

Legal or illegal, most of us would want to know if a car is a rebody.

I know when I see a 914 for sale, the first thing I do is find out if a member owns it, then come here to search for that member's threads. That will tell you a lot about a car sometimes.

So if I understrand correctly, the idea is to build or modify a list of VIN's, that would include any negative build information we as a community find questionable, in the hope that some unitiated 914 buyer might stumble across this list when he is about to buy a 914 off of an unscrupulous seller?

Umm, how likely is that to happen?

MORE likely, IMO, is a whole bunch of mud-slinging regarding whose car was repaired incorrectly, whose VIN is not consider a true VIN by the majority, whose "rebody" is legal or not, etc.

Geez, who wants that headache?

914 Buyers who come here already know the cars. Ans, if the car is listed here, there are probably a dozen members who can already tell you anything you should know about the car.

I know when mine goes up for sale, there will be plenty of members who will remember where I got it, who found it, and how much I paid. Any buyer is gonna find everything he wants without any "blacklist"

No, you didn't ...


For example, not too long ago there was a set of VIN plates for sale on ebay. I simply added those VIN's to our database with a comment that those were sold WITHOUT a car ... That's all, no mudslinging, no name calling.

Now, anyone who searches for those VIN numbers in the database will know that those were sold without a car.

If they ever end up *on* a car, people can make their own decision and come to their own conclusions.


This has obviously hit a nerve with some of you. I can only speculate as to why.