So you two aren't tight.Lipstick on a pig?Wow.JJackson

JP is a bit of a butt head and still sore my pig in lipstick boxster beat his "nationally" competitive 914.

JP is flat out wrong about the Boxster not being competive in Prepared or Mod classes with M96/97 motors. Just watch this years Nationals. I think he will be surprised at the number of those terrible self eating Porsche water pumper motors in fast cars. Eric is already being challenged in his SSM car by a fast SSM Boxster that just recieved a big 3.8 M97. LOL!

I guess JP has missed the fact a M97 motor can be used in Prepared classes. Granted M96 isnt the easiest motor to work with and it doesnt share the years of development of the older aircooled motors. But we are seeing some much better applications now.

The m96 motor in the FP Boxster right now (bought it for $2K used) has lasted 3 seasons without a hiccup. So much for them being crap. I dont know too many 2480cc aircooled motors that make over 200 HP with over 11 to 1 compression that last three seasons with multiple drivers running at redline every event. And there is clearly a good M97 motor that can be used that will crank out 300 HP in FP trim at 2.9 liters. Thats a competitive weight and allows the car to have some weight over the front end.

Erik has indicated the Boxster as it sits with a stock 2.5 exactly way I sent it to him is competitive for podium level. However Erik is more focused on E Production road racing than making the car a National class FP car. Its going to carry extra radiators and stay with 2.5 so its likely not going to be an all out FP car. And in case you missed it JP my Boxster was and is already a Nationally competive FP car. It has run down the fast podium placing FP cars and drivers in its class 3 times at differnt top level National and Regional events around the US. Get it through your thick skull dude. LOL!

Perhaps when JP builds a car that can compete at a National level in a given class he will gain some credibility being an "expert" but frankly I could care less as I will never see one his cars running against me or one of my cars. As I told JP 7 years ago anyone can cut a top off a 914 throw motor in the car and run near TTOD at a poorly attended local event against street class cars. Thats no fun for me! It takes some real knowledge to build a SCCA prepared class winning car at a national level.

I have nothing against people building fast cars just for fun but when they start spouting trash about the car being nationally competitive like JP has I just have to call BS.

Funniest thing about this is I have never claimed to be an expert. I'm just starting at this building cars for national level SCCA stuff. and I'm not sure how committed I am at this point. I dont have a car currently that I'm targeting for national level build. I am toyin gwith ideal of a 1.7 in FSP if they allow the car in that class. If not I may return to a very serious BSP Boxster build as I know thoses cars just as well as 914's now. You learn a lot about a car when you strip them down to race cars.

Grant always needs to have the last word so here it is....His thread from another forum without comment:




http://axpaddock.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=667

He has deleted stuff in the past to cover his tracks so be quick.

5-11-11
"So stock motor blew after a several thousand miles with stock 6500 rpm rev limiter with extra cooling, etc. And from my experience shift point is far below redline on stock 2.5 so shifts are more like 6200 rpm. I'm still not convinced m96 is something I ever want to touch again. mine blew first track event, Andrew blew his, several others have blown with relatively low miles and now Lucille. All stock low revving motors. I just don't see stock motors blowing so often as a great thing. I know stock air cooled 6s that have run much longer with regular track work. Think i have to admit i agree with JP that these motors stink. No worries about me running a spec boaster ever. Even m97 appears to have issues from what I see with racing Caymans.

I just say this as I have chased Larry's nealy 200K mile RSA around tracks, see it show up for tons of AX's and it seems to be still running fine. Tired but no broken pistons, slipped sleaves, fried cam bearings, blown RMS seals etc. We just see tons of issues with Boxster motors. Given their fairly mild tune and low RPMs I'm just suprised they fail so often. Well not really when I see the poor design execution in the motors. I was shocked when I saw my motor torn arpart. Lots of short cuts made on this mass produced powerplant.

Only motor Porsche seems to have dialed in is GT3 power plant. I'm waiting for 996 GT3 prices to come down more. Or I may go back to another air cooled P car.

Owner of my Boxster race car is going with LN Engineering block and tons of work to make it more reliable but dang thats expensive! Its a shame as I love the chassis on the Boxster and really understand how to build one now. I just cant stand the motor and lack of resources to go after its inherent weaknesses."

Sooo.... being from Arkansas and everything-it gets my attention when there are any pig quotes addressing lipstick issues-you know...barefoot and all......Randal
how is the spoiler plan coming along.The 100 sq inch endplates make for an interesting question.Also mesuring at 10" high at midpoint of your trunk-squared off and extending to the width of your flares.Simple design if your trunk was fixed.What if you were three pieces-the outers pieces with endplates permanently attached to car-say with some sort of closer flap when all three pieces aligned?
(our non wing closed off flap is grey duct tape)Just thinking about original thread.JJackson
BTW 1/4 inch lexan is really stout for drilling,countersinking,and attaching appendages.



.

.

.

Jeeze, I didn't mean to get ya'll.....er... aroused or sumthin'.

2 Piece trunk lid-fiberglass -front pinned-rear fixed -closed off and effective? Just thinking.JJackson

I have been thinking about getting started on the spoiler this weekend. Been down to TAP plastics in Mountain View and they have some pretty nice equipment to shape anything you want and can glue anything together for which you have the templates.

Oh, I like the duct tape idea for closing off the bottom ends of the spoiler. Was looking at that for sometime yesterday trying to figure out a way to get a shape.

Anyway i don't think I'll be adding anything to the car until after my return from the hill climb and the autoX at Medford.

The car seems to be pretty predictable now, abet the driver being behind, but don't want to inject any high speed aero differences until after the hill climb.

The 1.5 lane road is not forgiving if you go off, as you can see from the video of a 2009 (second day) run when a driver lost it after turn 2 and hit a tree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV_WrCjpiB0

I'm going to run the next AAS autoX in early June so will get a chance to play with the car again. Hell, who knows I might have 6 minutes total under my belt before I start that hill climb; what more could you ask for?

How far out West do you guys come to run SCCA events? It's be fun to hook up.

Yea, why wait to start the down force. Start it right behind the engine and create some huge down force.

Just lift the back of the trunk lid, like 10 inches minus the thickness of the lid, fill in the gaps and man there is a big airfoil.

Use Gurney flaps for end plates.

I like it.

Sure would look funny, but would probably work.

[quote name='Randal' date='May 26 2011, 11:27 PM' post='1484190']
[quote name='jjackson' post='1484160' date='May 26 2011, 07:54 PM']
2 Piece trunk lid-fiberglass -front pinned-rear fixed -closed off and effective? Just thinking.JJackson
[/quote]

When I mentioned thsi,I was still thinking of spoiler in traditional spot-Just say last six inches of entire trunk being fixed place-large squared off spoiler with sides (past effective trunk lid)hanging and attaching down sides to a point (width of flares) with rather large 99.9 sq inch endplates fixed to the triangular pieces running down towards ground-similar to area on Kiesel's (rule writer) new design.Closing off to bodywork makes this design awkward with rear trunk portion being operable.Just thinking.JJackson

[quote name='jjackson' date='May 27 2011, 04:49 AM' post='1484279']
[quote name='Randal' date='May 26 2011, 11:27 PM' post='1484190']
[quote name='jjackson' post='1484160' date='May 26 2011, 07:54 PM']
2 Piece trunk lid-fiberglass -front pinned-rear fixed -closed off and effective? Just thinking.JJackson
[/quote]

When I mentioned thsi,I was still thinking of spoiler in traditional spot-Just say last six inches of entire trunk being fixed place-large squared off spoiler with sides (past effective trunk lid)hanging and attaching down sides to a point (width of flares) with rather large 99.9 sq inch endplates fixed to the triangular pieces running down towards ground-similar to area on Kiesel's (rule writer) new design.Closing off to bodywork makes this design awkward with rear trunk portion being operable.Just thinking.JJackson

[/quote]


Oh yea, the trunk still has to work (lift) or come off (like mine with pins). Fastening the bits going down, toward the flares would get interesting. Easy to make permanent, but that doesn't work.

Maybe that is why Britain did his endplates the way he did.

It would be difficult to do the Kiessel type end plates but not impossible.
Fab it up as one piece with proper supports & all.....all fasteners/holes drilled.
Mark a line to cut the spoiler into 3 pieces with the separations being in line with the trunk seams, then take it of & cut it. I think it would be worth the effort.

I think it would be worth the effort also-either three piece spoiler or two piece trunk with single piece spoiler.JJackson

Wish you would draw me a picture of that two piece trunk with a single piece spoiler.

Wish you would draw me a picture of that two piece trunk with a single piece spoiler.
[/quote]
I'm just thinking out loud , and trying to figure out how you effectively close gap that extends towards ground-out past rear tail light area extending downwards-but outside dimension of endplates out there the width of your flares-but behind your flares.Might not be feasible at all.If the vrear portion of trunk was fixed-say 6 inches worth-front to rear being 6 inches.Entire assembly attached to this and sides of fenders-with no gaps.Front of trunk still operates off hinges or pinned.Front portion of trunk has no attachment to spoiler or end plates.
Realistically the three piece unit would be easier.Trying to figure out how to fashion the whole spoiler after Kiesels.He is the fastest autox car with fenders.That earlier posted picture of the red Healeys intake-just made me start thinking of outside the normal possibilities.My ramblings are most likely steering you in the wrong direction.JJackson

[quote name='jjackson' date='May 27 2011, 07:41 PM' post='1484644']
Wish you would draw me a picture of that two piece trunk with a single piece spoiler.
[/quote]
I'm just thinking out loud , and trying to figure out how you effectively close gap that extends towards ground-out past rear tail light area extending downwards-but outside dimension of endplates out there the width of your flares-but behind your flares.Might not be feasible at all.If the vrear portion of trunk was fixed-say 6 inches worth-front to rear being 6 inches.Entire assembly attached to this and sides of fenders-with no gaps.Front of trunk still operates off hinges or pinned.Front portion of trunk has no attachment to spoiler or end plates.
Realistically the three piece unit would be easier.Trying to figure out how to fashion the whole spoiler after Kiesels.He is the fastest autox car with fenders.That earlier posted picture of the red Healeys intake-just made me start thinking of outside the normal possibilities.My ramblings are most likely steering you in the wrong direction.JJackson
[/quote]


No wrong directions..just always moving forward.

Wish you folks could be running Medford with us. It sure looks like fun.

Got to buy a video camera before that event.

I think that guy who build the all aluminum tank car for Leno might show up at the hill climb. He's run there a bunch of times.

His aluminum work is just unbelievable.

http://www.blastolene.com/The_Special/page...Randy-Early.htm

This fella offered to fab some bigger rear flares for Brit's car to get some more meat there.....for a reasomable price.

Right, Britain is the one who told me about him. It looks like he is pretty active with the Medford Group and also runs the hillclimb. Was hoping to meet him at the event.

Can you imagine nice alumimum fenders all around? Pretty trick and light.

When you say the two piece trunk this comes to mind, filled in of course.

Click to view attachment

While the 2 piece trunk is also workable it means cutting a $400+ trunk lid and coming up with some support/tie down for the both sections at its center rear ( can't see leaving them to flop around)....that wouldn't happen in my house. In lieu of this, fitting the end plates and securing them would be a stinker.....but I've successfully done worse and it has to be done in either case.

Having the guy fab some rear flares seems like a slam dunk. The man is an artist.

Slept on it-Reality is were putting out ideas in fabricating a part that has to work efficiently.To compete at a high level in EM SCCA competition-
Power to weight
rolling speed through corners
usable torque and HP
aerodynamic devices to help all of these equations
proper gearing
hell of a drive
All of the things that you attempt to improve on this list will not work.The learning process and the development is the fun-You are chasing fast with a car that has been really develloped alot of different ways by a lot of different people.I used to compete with an FP car that I knew was not superior to past champion cars (ie York car )not to mention the Gullick,Fordahl car.We kept changing,developing,chasing, got a few rule changes- and now were developed to a pretty high level.Some budget tight years, we just changed a sticker.Other years we could do a lot more.
ENJOY your project-take it to a level that others have not seen.personally Im a 914 guy in amodern car world-Fortunately we get rule changes and developments in technology that allow us to go places that previous cars couldn't take advantage of.IE shock technology,splitters, new spoiler specifications.....The earlier succesful cars had to come up with these things on there own-and fabricate .We have a lot more information to draw from.LOL JJackson
PS-Hate to see proven,crazy fast cars, not selling compared to cars that have the long "want list " of impressive parts that do sell.I've driven more broke cars with impressive lists than CORRECT cars.

I'm going to try to come to Medford early and stop by Grants Pass and visit his shop.

Also I like the three piece spoiler deal, but having trouble figuring out how to hold the outside pieces on with just a single perch, or whatever you call it, like you built for the back of your original 10" spoiler.

The spoiler idea is really pretty interesting, especially from a budget perspective as you can definitely help the car with out huge cost, i.e., +/- about 300 bucks depending on what you use for uprights or perches.

Unlike a new set of bilstein, revalved to work with the car. (The cars set up right now is pretty good = I'm not looking forward to taking everything apart to figure out sprung and unsprung weight).

Or a new set of light wheels that will take 6lbs off each corner.

Or a new set of Hoosiers.

Oh yea, got to get those alumimun fenders made. That could drop the car's weight (guessing) about 30-40 lbs.

But for right now I'll keep reminding myself of what Bontempi told me a long time ago, seat time is the biggest factor! No question that is where the most improvement can be secured for the next 6 months and it's easy on the budget.

When one is operating on a limited budget there are many experiments that, while you'd love to try, just aren't in the wallet. So, you do what you can afford but make damn sure the car doesn't break.....trial & error doesn't make it here.....a broken (or semi-broken) car is a looser every time.

Next you need to be able to measure improvement. With the ever changing
courses/venues, comparative times with your fellow competitors are about the only data points available. Not an exact science but over time it's worked for me.

I think that guy who build the all aluminum tank car for Leno might show up at the hill climb. He's run there a bunch of times.

His aluminum work is just unbelievable.

http://www.blastolene.com/The_Special/page...Randy-Early.htm
[/quote]
Cool thread.Would definitely like to meet that guy.Learn all you can.You need light and fabrication...Hmmmm.JJackson

Don't forget the GoPro group buy is still going on.

I think you might be getting carried away with the rear spoiler. The spoiler isn't causing the down force all by itself. What it does is slow the velocity of the air over the rear deck lid. Without the spoiler, the high velocity air over the rear deck causes lift...bad. By placing the spoiler at the rear of the deck, it restricts the air flow and hopefully gives some down force on the deck. At a minimum it should reduce the lift. Making the spoiler a whole lot wider than the horizontal section of the rear deck doesn't seem to make much sense to me. On a 914 there is only a small flat section on either side of the trunk before it curves down the side. I would mount the spoiler to the deck lid and be done with it. The other thing is that Randal has a full roll cage and the 914 targa hoop messing up the air flow over the car. The Sprite has only a a roll bar and driver's head restricting the flow. I don't know which is better: good air flow and a good spoiler or turbulent air flow and a spoiler??????????

Bill:
That's the nice thing about building a race car, you can do anything you want...within the rules. You can do research on an issue and choose to employ an item or not. The results show up at the track (or in this case AX).
Other's opinions on the net are free and in some cases, wise.....others are worth what they cost.
It appears to me that Randal is making a good run at building a hell of an AXer to compete in a larger arena. Pay attention, you may learn sumthin'.

JP:
I'm always trying to learn, it's just sometimes I'm a little slow...I know just like my driving. It seems to me that if you are copying what someone else is doing, that you will always be one step behind and a little off pace.

Yes Randal's car is going great and has tons of potential. I'm sure he is going to be very quick in it.

Per SCCA rules, E Mods cannot use wings......XP cars can.....go figure.
As a result when E Mods gather (such as the Lincoln NT here) there iare a fairly narrow range of spoilers attending. All they have in common is they are built to the max of the rules (for the most part).

The Jeep is new.

more

more

more

Results

2011 Lincoln National Tour
May 29-30, 2011

**** UNOFFICIAL RESULTS (INFORMATIONAL ONLY) ****

Class standings for EM [8 Cars] (5/30/2011 3:54:18 PM)

---------------------------------------------------------
T 1 143 Jeff Kiesel 2010 KFR Turbo Sprite G Goodyea
70.519(1) 65.223(1) 65.951(1) 127.506
63.564 63.282 62.283
---------------------------------------------------------
T 2 43 Mark Kiesel 2010 KFR Turbo Sprite G Goodyea
70.983 67.448 66.886 133.017
66.620 66.131 68.631(1) (5.511)
---------------------------------------------------------
T 3 156 Robert G. Tunnel 1956 Jeep YC-J Yellow N/A
76.449 68.108 67.954 133.955
66.001 67.486(1) 67.317(1) (0.938)
---------------------------------------------------------
4 56 Jeff Ellerby 1956 Jeep YC-J YELLOW N/A
70.724 DNF 68.868 134.918
67.426 66.610 66.050 (0.963)
---------------------------------------------------------
5 65 Jeff Christianso 1998 Westfield SEI Blac N/A
72.316 68.988 68.048 135.818
68.929 68.427 67.770 (0.900)
---------------------------------------------------------
6 39 Dave Whitworth 2004 Ford Mustang Cobra Hoosier
76.913 70.939 70.488 140.694
73.463 75.751 70.206 (4.876)
---------------------------------------------------------
7 62 Doug Turner 1990 Mazda Miata Blue Hoosier
77.393 73.059 71.809 143.261
72.859 71.479 71.452 (2.567)
---------------------------------------------------------
8 38 Ron Ver Mulm 1981 Chevrolet Camaro O N/A
DNS DNS DNS No Time
68.533 68.700 69.376

Yeah Bill what do you know. LOL!

Honestly with the little T4 in that car I dont think extra drag is what Randal wants right now. He needs all the speed he can muster? I'd spend more time cleaning up airflow over the car as Bill suggests. Especially if he is hillclimbing the car. Too much spoiler drag can take tons of top speed off the straights in low HP car like his. You guys are looking at spoilers on 350 to 500 HP cars as models? One might argue they dont need to worry about drag as much as a sub 200 HP car that weighs the same.

Paul posted this over in the Sandbox:

Click to view attachment

This is what I was thinking when I built my adjustable spoiler.

That looks much more reasonable and ability to adjust is key in my mind as you wont want much drag for those uphill runs approaching 100 MPH.

I think the hillclimb classes allow a wing dont they? Those big goofy spoilers are so SCCA Solo2.

Easy to get another piece of aluminum cut at the metal house in Redwood City, drill holes and bolt it on to my existing mini spoiler. If I make it 10" high then I'll have to add some upstands in back or tie downs in front.

Think I will try this after I return from Medford.

My EP car is allowed the same 10" rule as the Mod class, but mine isn't done yet. I think I am going with a clear one as well, though Aluminum is a close second. Lexan is durable and light (though not cheap).

Other than that, I don't have much to add.