It occurs to me that we've been throwing around some pretty big numbers in my 3.2 exploits of late.

I want to see how little I can spend converting Luckie's 914, but still do the job correctly.

Here are the parameters:

The engine has to be no larger than 2.4. This will save us the major expense of having to provide external cooling. The oil system will only be tank and lines.

The 2.4 will use an early 901 911 flywheel, which I should be able to find used. It will also use a stock clutch.


The goal on this one will be finished for $5k. I sourced a core 2.2T engine for $300. Since it was so little, I have quite a bit of room to fix whatever it needs, but 911 parts get expensive fast.

I'm going with Megasquirt II fuel injection possibly on a custom-built intake manifold. This arrangement will not use the expensive 914/6 bellcrank conversion, but rather a simple 914/4 stock throttle cable.



Current expenditures listed below:

Engine mount: $90
2.2T engine (long block, delivered): $195 (cost adjusted for unneeded parts sold off)
Megasquirt II ECU: $85
FI components (relay board cables and wiring): $219.25
Intake: $55
Headers: $168
Crank-fire pulley kit: $175
Blast headers: $10
POR-20 for the headers: $37.02

Current total $1034.27

Donations are cheating and will skew the data of the experiment!

This sounds alot like what I'm doing, but i've already gone over the $5K mark.

It's an aggressive budget. Trekkor was able to keep the costs down on his 6 but I heard he had to then redo a bunch of stuff soon after. I'll be interested to see how this goes. If you can do it, please document it for the rest of us!
Zach

It will be fully documented. That's the point.

To do a low cost conversion, a lot of it will depend on how you value your time. A lot of the time I've spent on my car I can chalk up to a fun hobby and an education but if this was a paying job, it might be cheaper just to order parts from a catalog. If guys like Eric Shea, Scotty B, ect. charged me for their advise, the build would be unaffordable to me

* just my thoughts, not a criticism to anyone.

I have a custom made oil tank that was in a race car that I will donate!

It mounts under the trunk above the axcels and opens, fills and checks the oil through the trunk!

Just pay shipping and packaging from 94505!

This will obviously not take the time into consideration. It will be intended as a guide for do-it-yourselfers as to what they can expect as a minimum reasonable cost to have a decent /6 conversion.

Man, that thing is ugly. But, I'll have a look. How much to ship?

To make it accurate you'll not want to us your undoubtly wide range of contacts for freebies. Duplicate the average DIY guy doing the deed with just normal access to bits and you will have it. Good luck with that budget.
My old running 2.4L T motor with Webers cost 2400 bucks from Asse bros.....several years back. DIY guys do shop around.

BTW, I wouldn't use a crossbar mount if you paid me to take it.

Joe,

This looks like a great project. I really like the 2.2 and 2.4 engines. I do have a 914-6 oil tank which I could part with; only after you see pictures we will talk. Just setting here so you might as well have it; will need some money though, but not anywhere near the level for used tanks. It has been cleaned and pressured checked. I have the console, dipstick and housing somewhere around here along with the possibility of the metric adaptor from 27mm(?) for the oil tank. May have some other items you can use.

I did find out a little more regarding the DMEs for the 1984-86 and 1987-89 3.2 engines. The essential difference is the 84-86 and nonprogrammable with 24 pins and programs burned into the chip; 87-89 is programmable with 28 pins. I am still unsure about the o2 sensor being just on the 87-89 and not on the 84-86. Hopefully, I will get a nonrepairable DME to tear apart to see what makes it tick and give me a basis to talk to knowledgeable experts. I find this very interesting.

Excellent, excellent project. Let us see if we can help you and Luckie on this project.

Will get back to you.

Steve Hurt

Get me the info on the tank. It sounds like something I'd like to get from you.

JP is right, for this to be a reasonable cost guide, I'm going to have to pay for the parts.

I am going to use the cross-bar mount though. There is absolutely nothing fundamentally wrong with mounting a /6 to the same (very strong) /4 positions on the chassis. Most people on a budget would take the same route.

Yes it is, but it is a Tank........literaly!!

I don't think it will fit into a flat rate box and it is heavy maybe 7 or 8 pounds!

It doesn't include the filters or lines either!

Let me know if you want it!

If not, it is available to anyone who wants a cheap hillbilly tank for thier cheap hillbilly car...FREE!!

After considering JP's comment and the fact that I stated "done correctly" at the outset, I have reconsidered. Let someone else have it.

But, I appreciate the offer.

OK JP. I'm not taking the free "tank", but I want you to notice that someone else, who doesn't have my "wide range of contacts", may also have it for free.

I think 5k is possible for a small /6 without relying on donations ...

As you can see, I started a running total at the bottom of the first post. I listed the free engine mount for $100, which is a fair market value.

I've seen 911 oil tanks used. They don't fit behind the fender and mounting them in the trunk is butt ugly.
Maybe if you relocated the relay board there's enough space for one inside the engine bay?

The upside of a 911 tank would be a working oil level sending unit.

Joe,

I think that as long as you list parts at their available to average person used (if you get them used) prices, then I think you can use donated parts.

IE that custom race tank could be made for probably $200, In fact probably less than that. Since this is an ultra budget 6 conversion I think that this is an acceptable means of oil storage.


However if the cross bar motor mount doesnt hold the engine properly and has been known to fail (I have no clue if this is true..), then This probably shouldnt be incorperated into the conversion. However maybe fabricating some engine mounts yourself would be acceptable. Dont cheat and take dimensions from conversion mounts in your shop, dry mount the engine and fab the mounts in place like the average person would!


But all in all, I say go for it! This will be an interesting build!

.....The fram filter's scare me more !....oil tank is cool, long as it
holds oil it's good enough! (bad ju ju with those filter's)

The filter consol is kind of cool minus the bracket. It has the AN connectors and everything!

I'll be watching this one closely.

Wow, that tank is kind of cool.

I was hoping to do some out-of-the-box thinking but went with a PMS tank. Does that tank go in the engine bay? (edit: I just saw that it goes under the trunk) Does it have baffling, what material is it made of...very interesting....

BTW I think $5k is do-able.
If I end up using my Bursch and the CIS on my 2.7 instead of the carbs my price list is $5200 total with mostly NEW fancy parts!!!

Oh yeah, that's before selling off my 2.0 /4 engine and all the goodies too.

Both DME's are upgraded with new chips.
The older DME's can be changed from the 2k format to the 4k format with a small amount of soldering...so you can use the later chips.
See Steve Wongs 911 chip site.

The largest difference between the two is the idle circuit sucks on the earlier DME's and the later ones smooth that out quite a bit.

Either one will be smoothed out very nicely with the Steve Wong chip.
He enriches the idle circuit and the lower RPM curve so street driving is more pleasant.

Both the early and later versions use narrow band O2 sensors.
These only kick in when hot, but if you delete that sensor, your MPG will suffer dearly (50%)

Euro DME's have no O2 sensor and they have different A/F maps.

Call Steve Wong...he can lead you in the right direction.

Rich

Are there any disadvantages to using a front tank setup like this? The reason I ask is this may be the route I choose so I can get a little bit better weight distribution.

http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/401/

Bigtime loss of trunk space is why I didn't go that route. Other than that, it's a good option.

a lot of people do it successfully.
but it is recommended that your return line (feeding the oil to the bearings directly) be AN16

all of those feet of AN16 add up, plus the fittings.... so you could have 400+ worth of oil line and fittings (I think the line is going for $1 an inch these days)

on the con side, there is some concern (especially in racing) that all of the dips and curves, plus the 13+ foot of length could lead to oil starvation of the bearings during cornering

its a gravity feed system, which is why the factory put the tank above the motor inlet (remember this is a manufacturer who understand and cares about how high weight is in the chassis, yet they did it anyways) It may also be the reason the factory tank is shapped in a funnel overall, to assure the gravity feed and reduce the ability for the oil to slosh away from the drain into the engine.

brant

Brad converted a white 914 (early?) into a Six for $5K. He did some pretty careful shopping around, and the conversion was very mild. I think it used a 69 911T motor (which came with the carbs, for not a lot of money) and he kept the stock four-lug setup and such.

That's probably about as cheap as it can reasonably be done, unless you're really into fabrication like Dan Root did.

--DD

Rats, double post...

Well, you start off looking for a deal like this;

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=137220

Then you look for a deal like this;

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=137220

Sell off the extra tub & other extra bits and you should be able to do it, that is if you are doing it your self & bribing buddies with beer & pizza..

I think it can be done for that. But, would you want to? The lure of better parts for more money is pretty un-avoidable. Once you get the car tore apart and you are "planning" it is easy to be distracted by "shiny things".... I had a 10k budget for my car, and I am way past that. Way, way past that. I started out with a frugle mindset and then got distracted by, you know, "shiny things"....

O'Brien has been into the Opaloca Wacky Gold again I see.

I can name that note for $3K Wink.

Lay the stock T-4 cross bar up against any of those POS "quick six" type bars......Ayuppers, that 4 bar is one stout puppy......forged steel, IIRC. A piece of tubing (or bar stock) of half the weight is not and most of em' break along the substandard gusset welds due to flexing. Just raise your budget to $5200 & blame it on me.

isn't finding a good 6 with good leak down - the true obstacle - the unknown.

the rest of the parts are off the shelf and easy to source.

jim

Very true. I've been offered a 2.2T long block for $300. Now the challenge will be to get the engine delivered and in running condition for less than $3200.

For those who have said it's difficult to resist the upgrades, I understand. I've already priced a bunch of engine upgrades, but I'm going to resist for now.

Megasquirt II with distributorless EDIS6.

I'm not positive this will fit, but it was cheap so I bought it on spec.

3.2L intake manifold for $200!

This arrangement lurks under the front deck on my car:

Yeah that's very similar to what I had in mind especially since ill be running a cooler. Didnt mean to thread Jack but that tank is substantially less than a fender mount.

The oil system on the RS has nothing to do with saving money. The budget on that car came to 10x the budget of this conversion thread.

In the final analysis, that tank won't save you anything.

Agreed
the fender tank is just as cheap when you add the line cost
even with the front mounted cooler, the cost difference of AN16 line in comparison to AN12 line is substantial and the fittings are VERY substantial

the fender tank can actually be cheaper
The RS is not built on a budget that is for sure!

brant

This is a great thread Joe
I'm very slowly doing the same conversion
I still need to collect the 2.2core that you have found

I have the carbs, 2.2E pistons, 70.4crank and rods to make a med-high compression 2.4 out of it.

I've been collecting conversion parts for a couple of years now and want to upgrade my bar style mount and also find/build the motor still. Otherwise I think I have all of the parts collected.

brant

Well, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

The seller is trying to back out by saying "I accidentally listed it twice and it sold yesterday."

Maybe I'll fabricate my first manifold......

69 2.0L 911T motor for $500

Spotted this on CraigsList!

BTDT, its not too hard.

I'm really looking forward to seeing this build...

I have the engine on the way...

Hey Joe, I will look and see if I have a complete 73.5 2.4L CIS set up for the nominal price of $100 minus a $95 discount 'cause your such a good guy. Remember that the injectors are set in the heads on these early engines (MFI too) and not in the manifold runners like the later 2.7s and up. I could also come up with a 2.7L CIS system too.

Both systems will be minus the fuel accumulator and filter assembly.

Oh, the Brown Turd I did was a 2.4 CIS motor.

I like and understand CIS (almost).

If you get in a real pinch, I have the following exhaust ,,, Craigslist sellers don't take real good photos. I have $400 into them ($300 + got nailed $100 freight). I thought they were bolted together, but .... "That's the Rest of the Story". Was gonna have them cut and the appropriate collectors and flanges put back on them.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

At the price, it's very close to a new set of headers.

For shipping I would cut the crossover pipe and it would lower the shipping into a reasonable range.

headers have no heat , So you are 1 up even if they are riverside nos

My glass is half full...Not sure how much I would bet that this can be done though. If you're only converting drivetrain and are only concerned with getting it running...then I think you have a legit chance of being successful. What I've found is that all the small items eat up conversion budgets. Thanks for sharing and I look forward to seeing it run!

Thanks for the offers Ron. I'm doing Megasquirt on this one, so I'm either buying manifolds for a 3.2 or I'm going to make some myself. The CIS manifolds would be easy, but they're restrictive. Since I think I'll probably end up turning the engine into an S spec later on, I want to set up a high-flow top induction now.

As for the heat exchangers......

Not really sure if there is a true low budget 914-6 conversion possible anymore unless you have good connections. The average person will spend way more to convert one than you could buy one for. It USE to be totally worth it for the average bear:

Factory oil tank = $450
Used heater boxes = $500
Bursch headers (save a buck and time to hunt down heat) = $200
Used small 2.0-2.4 non "S" engine = $1000-1500 complete with muffler
Flywheel = $100
911 "Soft long" oil line = $65
Egnine tin = Free (I use to have templates)
Shifter bar = Free (I use to have a jig)
Muffler hanger = Free (I use to have a template)
Bell Crank = $15 for solex balls and cups, (I use to have jigs and templates)
Sell your 4cyl 1.7-1.8 $0, 2.0 $500

This was 10+ years ago, shoot, probably more like 15+ years ago.

I've seen some pretty good conversions go for $10-15k that looked to be clean cars. Not really sure if you could source all that, put it together for the same price anymore.